Difficult to sell a HDB flat more than 40 years old

Miss X has a HDB flat in Telok Blangah. In Dec 2017, She bought another HDB flat in Chua Chu Kang as it was near to her workplace. She wanted to avoid the long travelling time of 1.5 hours each way to get to work and back. It could take longer if there is a MRT breakdown.

HDB gave her 6 months to sell her first HDB flat.

She engaged several agents to sell the flats at the then market valuation price of $322,000 (In Dec 2017). The property agent told her that the market price had dropped as her flat had passed the 40 year mark. Later, the market became worse after the minister announced that HDB flat will have no value at the end of 99 year lease.

Miss X could not sell her Telok Blangah flat within 6 months. She wrote to her MP and to HDB for assistance and extension of time. They did not reply to her. But they did not press her to sell the flat.

Miss X continued to look for a buyer. She was able to get a buyer willing to pay $292,000. She submitted the application for a transfer to HDB. HDB gave a lower valuation of $275,000 for the flat. The buyer opted out of the purchase, requested refund of the deposit that had been mutually agreed prior to the sales, due to Buyer worry of the high COV.

During this period, she had used several property agents. One had advised her to market at a much lower price of $280,000 to $290,000 for the flat in Jun 2018 but Miss X did not engaged his service.

The agent managed to convince some nearby neighbours to let him market below $250,000 !). At that price, she would have suffered a loss of about $30,000 which was too costly for her.

She was disappointed that the property agents only wanted to close the sale and get their commission. They did not care that the owner would be suffering a large loss.

 

Tan Kin Lian

 

 

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36 Responses to “Difficult to sell a HDB flat more than 40 years old”

  • I like POGBA, hate POFMA:

    Why Miss X didn’t think of meeting up with National Development Min, Lawrence Wong?

    Since Min Wong was the one who told us two weeks ago that “There is still value in older HDB flats”, Miss X should just go ask him how much is the value of her flat and if she can sell it back to HDB or Min Wong.

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  • TKL Pok U least:

    You got so many condos and landed property. Why not sell one to her at a discounted price?

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  • opposition dude:

    Let all the dafts living in these old flats watch their property values go down, down, down.

    Since they believe that with the easing of CPF rules for older flats will somehow either stabilise or cause their properties to go up in value again so just let them be, we are all allowed to daydream after all.

    The show gets more exciting as we head into the 2020s. All those estates where blocks were built in the 1980s will see the same fate. Since there will be dozens of blocks over 40 by 2025 it also means thousands of dafts will see their flats’ values dropping.

    HOORAY!!!

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  • Dictatorship Democracy:

    Why stop at age 40?
    The assumption here is, if hdb flat age is 40, reselling starts to be a problem.

    But why stop there? When it’s 39, if a buyer also assumes by age 40, the flat resale is affected, then at age 39, the flat will already be harder to sell since a year later it will be 40.

    So, according to this logic, the resale fiasco starts before age 40.

    My point is, in general, hdb flat should depreciate from the day it was first built, just like standard depreciation.
    This is IN GENERAL. Of course if location is prime, of course it’s value can even go up. So let’s just focus on In General.

    I think some factor is holding up the value. It could be artificially inflated. Asshole appreciation ream.

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  • HarderTruths:

    Whom did she vote for?

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  • oxygen:

    ASSET ENHANCEMENT SCHEME is a SCAM transferring wealth from the poor to the rich in the finality of outcome.

    CPF is also buried in that HDB coffin.

    Ah Lians, Ah Huays and Ah Sengs are all too stupid to even begin to discover they are stupid to impossibility in believing this vote scam.

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  • TruBlu:

    HDB flats are too over-priced for the AVERAGE SG.
    HDB should lower prices for the COMMON GOOD of COMMON sg families.

    It is so ridiculous to see 5-ROOM HDBs going for $1 MILLION or even at $1.2 Million when FREEHOLD LANDED TERRACE HOUSES can averagely fetch less than $2.5- $3 million?

    The govt is responsible for REGULATING HDB prices so that the average sg family can *own* their own home at affordable prices.

    Non-sgs should be barred from buying HDB even in secondary markets.
    Non-sgs can easily RENT a room or even the entire flat.
    Many PRs can even buy HDB to RENT TO OTHER NEWER MIGRANT WORKERS or even to HOMELESS SGS.
    IS THIS CORRECT?

    On the other hand, i fail to see why the govt CONTROL THE PRIVATE HOME MARKET SO STRINGENTLY?

    Like FREEHOLD LANDED CANNOT BE SOLD TO NON-sgs except in SENTOSA?
    IS SENTOSA A SAR LIKE HONGKONG???

    The govt is completely inconsistent in its public policies for HOUSING

    WORST OF ALL,in an AGING POPULATION ENVIRONMENT COUPLED WITH JOBLESSNESS,THE G HAS ALLOWED MEDICAL COSTS TO ESCALATE EVEN FASTER THAN HOME PRICE INCREASES?

    THIS G IS MISMANAGING OUR ECONOMY N IT IS VERY CLEAR UNLESS SGS CHOOSE TO REMAIN DAFT like revered LKY said.

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  • Hum Chi Pan:

    Why the writer wrote like a secondary school kid doing his composition? Anyway what is he up to, writing so many compo nowadays? Abit boring and lack emotional element.

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  • please don't tell lies TKL:

    there is no such thing as, difficult to sell anything in life.

    if ever there is such a difficulty, it is because the asking price in NOT realistic.

    Miss X probably believed in the pap lie that her HDB is asset, so much so Mis X priced her HDB as if it is truly an asset, forgetting that HDB is just an overpriced HDB rental contract which goes to zero at end of rental lease.

    anyone who buys with any COV is just sheep.

    unless die die must the location, and the floor height, and the block, and the unit, ever since pap announced HDB goes to zero at end of lease, it is a sheep to ever pay more for used HDB rental unit.

    everyone, pap or OPPO, must stop the pap lie HDB is asset than can be enhanced. it is a lie pure and simple. and anyone who thinks someone would take over their used HDB at higher price is either sheep or sheepishly sheep.

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  • People still dumb!:

    No mention of flat type 3 or 4 or 5rm flat. Nevertheless majority still feel and think dumb, trusting PAP and putting their hopes with them. HDB is gone forever but FTs 10M population is true! That’s the only way to boost consumption becos there are many shopping malls and food courts but too few to consume. Singapore has been confirmed dead donkey yrs ago and people still did not know they had been buried if not cremated.
    Dr M recently made a powerful statement on Hua Wei and sarcastically insulted US. Immediately China allowed frozen durians imports. But PM LHL bad mouth China by eating US’s and Japan’s bananas. Today he carry boss China. I hope more news like this will happen daily so that people will continue to support PAP.

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  • WakeupSG:

    We must be daft to believe HDB flat is an appreciating asset when it factually depreciates to zero when it expires at 99 years!

    Whoever says HDB flat is an appreciating asset is telling us fake info!

    Can you still trust these people who lie?

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  • HDB flat depreciate to ZERO:

    HDB valuation of flats is mainly based on the remaining lease. The shorter the remaining lease is the lower the price. This proves that an HDB flat is basically a DEPRECIATING asset because of the 99-year lease.

    HIP1 and HIP2 will only slightly and temporarily increase the value of the flat. It like repainting an old car. Its value goes up by the cost of repainting. When no longer usable its value is ZERO just like an HDB flat.

    Allowing retirement money (CPF) to pay for a (depreciating) HDB flat is a big mistake. The flat and CPF money wind up ZERO when the lease ends.

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  • Asshole Reaming scheme:

    oxygen:
    ASSET ENHANCEMENT SCHEME is a SCAM transferring wealth from the poor to the rich in the finality of outcome.

    CPF is also buried in that HDB coffin.

    Ah Lians, Ah Huays and Ah Sengs are all too stupid to even begin to discover they are stupid to impossibility in believing this vote scam.

    Were the 72 pap mp not aware of the term called Depreciation?
    Have they raised any issue in the last 5 decades? The Singaporeans so smart and well educated and well travelled they also
    Never realise the issue?

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  • oxygen:

    AH WONG chai still asserts that “all 99-year leasehold properties are “clearly assets owned by the homeowners. They can rent, they can sell at anytime and keep the proceeds.”

    Social media has it that MND put out a 3-minute video presentation which it promises……” because “the vast majority of Singaporeans live in HDB flats. And we are committed to ensuring HDB remains a good home and a good store of value for retirement for all Singaporeans.”

    http://theindependent.sg/pap-minister-stresses-that-99-year-lease-properties-are-clearly-assets-owned-by-the-homeowners/

    IT IS A MERE OPINION, not stated as a FACT OF OUTCOME OR OBSERVATION OF REALITY, in that (mere fanciful dream or fat hope aspiration???) commitment to ensuring HDB remains a good home and a GOOD STORE OF VALUE FOR RETIREMENT FOR ALL SINGAPOREANS. Since this promise is a mere opinion, no guarantee, it CAN’T BE FAULTED FOR FAKE NEWS PUBLISHING at all.

    What is challengeable of is this factual accounting claims of – HDB buyers are “owners of assets by the home buyers for these reasons of implied (NOT explicitly claimed so) -

    a) they can rent
    b) they can sell and
    c) they keep the proceeds.

    OF THUNDERING SILENCE IS ITS BREVITY OF DETAILS IS THESE HOLLOW DARKNESS OF CONCEALMENT.

    - if HDB buyers are owners, how come the occupiers of these dwelling needs to lease it for 99-yrs from HDB or any other ghostly hidden entity? The transfer document states clearly HDB buyers are “tenants”, not owners for the SPECIFIED UNIQUE ONE-OFF amount of financial consideration paid for by the purchaser. A rent is a periodic payment of regular (but can revised according to changing market conditions) paid for by the tenant until lease expiry who don’t own the premises. The upfront payment extracted by the seller (HDB) is proof that it holds the animus possidendi (i.e. possession and final say in control of outcome to its own preference), not the tenant who stays on at the mercy and terms dictated by the real owner.

    - on the question of buyer of HDB can rent – this one is DUD, there is no law in the world that a leasor cannot sublet part of the premises it leased from the proper owner, partitioned it and sublet to another. It is very common in business. Therefore the right to rent (sublet) DOES NOT PROVE OWNERSHIP

    - on keeping proceeds of sales, this one is A REAL HOAX OF FART OF FICTION. HDB extracted a resale levy (if you downgrade via another BTO purchase). If receipt of proceeds “prove” ownership, IS HDB IS STILL HIDDEN OWNER AFTER THE SALE TO THE PURCHASER?

    vIDEO PRESENTATION IS WHAT IT IS – I-told-you-so-so-it-is-true-one-way-communication. No-need-to-contradict.- NOT EVEN POFMA.

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  • oxygen:

    Ooops typo error there

    oxygen: The upfront payment extracted by the seller (HDB) is proof that it holds the animus possidendi (i.e. possession and final say in control of outcome to its own preference), not the tenant who stays on at the mercy and terms dictated by the real owner.

    should have been read as

    oxygen: The upfront payment extracted by the seller (HDB) is proof that it holds the ANIMUS DOMINI (i.e. possession and final say in control of outcome to its own preference), not the tenant who stays on at the mercy and terms dictated by the real owner.

    It is property law concepts better explained in this case law analysis found here.

    Keenan, Patrick — “Finders, Occupiers and Possession: Parker v British Airways Board” [1983] SydLawRw 12; (1983) 10(1) Sydney Law Review 180

    http://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/viewdoc/au/journals/SydLawRw/1983/12.html?context=1;query=Parker%20v%20British%20Airways%20Board;mask_path=

    It is most unlikely that any Ah Lians, Ah Huays or Ah Sengs watching the MND 3-minute video will comprehend the depth and complexity in real life application of property law concepts illuminated by Patrick Keenan in the above weblink.

    That is in reality of fact and law, buyers of HDB are NOT the legal owner – mere leasor paying 99-yr rent in advance at best and at worst, as the legal documentation STATES EXPLICITLY SO, are mere TENANTS.

    HDB AT ALL TIMES IS LEGAL OWNER.

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  • PAP Root of All Evils:

    Those useless idiots in PAP government tried to interfere and meddle with the market, the result is a huge mess, unnecessary loss of value and massive losses to poor dafts.
    PAP messed up this country at the expense of poor dafts.

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  • oxygen:

    @ Asshole Reaming Scheme

    IT IS FOUND IN FLAWED ECONOMIC LOGIC beyond “depreciation” (presumably you meant wear and tear in accounting provision).

    All asset bubbles transfer wealth from poor to the rich – simple economic logic – if you owns only one “property” and restricted to “one” purchase only until mortality takes you to TERN SUA never to return and if that one purchase is property accomodation rise in price (PAPpy favorite deception is ‘value” implying wealth expansion), the next one you buy is also exactly higher. So the paper profit imagined is ILLUSORY AND FICTITIOUS.

    But if HDB prices inflated by use of CPF contribution i.e. too much money chasing “cheap, highly afordable” housing, private condos for HDB upgraders also become “cheap” in comparison. They also bubble up – SAME CIRCUS SHOW OF WEALTH SELF-DELUSION AND HALLUCINATION. But they favor those RICH who owns multiple property and then can sell “extra” for real profit – leaving one for his/her needs of owner-occupation and use.

    SO ASSET ENHANCEMENT POLITICS IS A SCAM transferring wealth from the masses of the poor (who did all the heavy lifting of pushing up HDB prices) to the the mulitple-owning property rich (who did nothing of the price-lifting efforts and collecting the gain).

    The easiest constituents to CON of course is all the Ah Lians, Ah Huays and Ah Sengs – those who are greedy and TOO STUPID TO EVEN BEGIN TO DISCOVER THEY ARE STUPID TO IMPOSSIBILITY.

    The educated middle class fall for the same trap – even now among property mad idiots – ARE EDUCATED ONLY INSIDE THE UNIVERSITY THEY GRADUATED FROM. Outside the scholastic campus, these are walking garbage bins of equal STUPIDITY to their graveyard.

    These mob thinks “buy property” today with huge debt SOMEHOW ( I never comprehend this and will never comprehend ever) becomes “richer” than yesterday.

    THIS IS A MENTAL DISEASE IN SOME SINKIES – GREEDY AND STUPID TOGETHER.

    PAPpypolitics and PAPpynomics have a real fun time playing their a*ses at will.

    Asshole Reaming scheme: Were the 72 pap mp not aware of the term called Depreciation?
    Have they raised any issue in the last 5 decades? The Singaporeans so smart and well educated and well travelled they also
    Never realise the issue?

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  • Perspective:

    The market value of re-sale flats is very much determined by HDB’s valuation even if the seller can get a higher valuation from elsewhere. Which buyer would want to pay more than the valuation price unless there are justifications for it? A distressed home owner is often at a disadvantage to sell fast which makes it even harder for the agent to find a willing buyer. If that is the case, either meet the buyer half-way or sell it back to HDB to get it done and over with.

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  • NotMyProblem:

    Please don’t blame those agencies, they tried their very best to sell. Also, don’t blame the 99-years lease.

    Just blame yourself in believing what those liars said “HDB value will not depreciate”, “HDB is a retirement nest eggs”, “Asset enhancement”, “HIP2 and VERS”, etc

    Wake up, wake up! You should be smarter now, I hope! Here is a chance to prove it, by voting wisely!

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  • To our Crony-capitalists:

    “It’s funny how you’re nice to our faces. It’s hilarious how you tweak shit behind our backs. And it’s downright comical that you think we’re unaware…”

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  • PAPs the lying experts:

    just wondering, how long these clowns are going to keep up with their never ending lies and betrayals.

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  • Daffy duck:

    This election is going to be the first time an IQ test is done on Singapore Citizens : how nany per cent voting in favour poverty

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  • Went to Japan:

    PAP lao lee and ministers said the asset will never drop in value.

    Sheep really believe their promise.

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  • Perpetually enhancing?:

    When the HDB asset deception has been perpetrated by three contiguous PMs you kinda figure out it’s not the good old PAP no more…and your CPF savings is no retirement fun…

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  • rukidding:

    sillyporeans, believing in everything Pappy says !

    She deserves it …for being silly in the first place!

    Silly because she was so easily “conned” by the very same party she voted for !!

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  • Another class action sue?:

    Time for old HDB owners to gather and sue the government and the ministers who promised in black and white that their HDB values will ONLY GO UP.

    oxygen:
    @ Asshole Reaming Scheme

    IT IS FOUND IN FLAWED ECONOMIC LOGIC beyond “depreciation” (presumably you meant wear and tear in accounting provision).

    All asset bubbles transfer wealth from poor to the rich – simple economic logic – if you owns only one “property” and restricted to “one” purchase only until mortality takes you to TERN SUA never to return and if that one purchase is property accomodation rise in price (PAPpy favorite deception is ‘value” implying wealth expansion), the next one you buy is also exactly higher. So the paper profit imagined is ILLUSORY AND FICTITIOUS.

    But if HDB prices inflated by use of CPF contribution i.e. too much money chasing “cheap, highly afordable” housing, private condos for HDB upgraders also become “cheap” in comparison. They also bubble up – SAME CIRCUS SHOW OF WEALTH SELF-DELUSION AND HALLUCINATION. But they favor those RICH who owns multiple property and then can sell “extra” for real profit – leaving one for his/her needs of owner-occupation and use.

    SO ASSET ENHANCEMENT POLITICS IS A SCAM transferring wealth from the masses of the poor (who did all the heavy lifting of pushing up HDB prices) to the the mulitple-owning property rich (who did nothing of the price-lifting efforts and collecting the gain).

    The easiest constituents to CON of course is all the Ah Lians, Ah Huays and Ah Sengs – those who are greedy and TOO STUPID TO EVEN BEGIN TO DISCOVER THEY ARE STUPID TO IMPOSSIBILITY.

    The educated middle class fall for the same trap – even now among property mad idiots – ARE EDUCATED ONLY INSIDE THE UNIVERSITY THEY GRADUATED FROM. Outside the scholastic campus, these are walking garbage bins of equal STUPIDITY to their graveyard.

    These mob thinks “buy property” today with huge debt SOMEHOW ( I never comprehend this and will never comprehend ever) becomes “richer” than yesterday.

    THIS IS A MENTAL DISEASE IN SOME SINKIES – GREEDY AND STUPID TOGETHER.

    PAPpypolitics and PAPpynomics have a real fun time playing their a*ses at will.

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  • 2 casinos create jobs???:

    Perpetually enhancing?:
    When the HDB asset deception has been perpetrated by three contiguous PMs you kinda figure out it’s not the good old PAP no more…and your CPF savings is no retirement fun…

    Went to Japan:
    PAP lao lee and ministers said the asset will never drop in value.

    Sheep really believe their promise.

    PAPs the lying experts:
    just wondering, how long these clowns are going to keep up with their never ending lies and betrayals.

    pap used to tell 70% sheep, vote OPPO and the value of your HDB rental unit drops. and 70% sheep believed in the HDB asset enhancement lie.

    notice pap has stopped this threat. WHY? because pap laulan wrong has spoken in public, HDB rental unit value goes to zero even after HIP1 HIP2 and all the gimmicks at end of lease.

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  • C’est la vie:

    *****
    The re-education of Poreans will probably continue for a few more decades.

    During which time, … they’ll learn what a lease is and how it actually works. And guess what, it should be no different to any other lease, … anywhere else in the world. And no, … SG may be unique with COE, Singlish and an all purpose “pension pot”, but no, … SG has not and will not be reinventing the “lease”.

    The re-education of Poreans will probably continue for a few more decades, … or maybe never !!!
    ***
    *****

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  • Aziz kassim:

    Deserved it. 100% pap voter!

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  • Dictator's Democracy:

    To our Crony-capitalists:
    “It’s funny how you’re nice to our faces. It’s hilarious how you tweak shit behind our backs. And it’s downright comical that you think we’re unaware…”

    Cronies are greedy and so they are short-sighted. They support because they see immediate wealth gains .
    They are part of the problem.
    Like fonzi scheme.

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  • Singpaorean Kong Come:

    PAP lao lee and ministers said the asset will never drop in value.
    Sheep really believe their promise. Hyflux is another episode. AKF=All Kenna Fxxk. Good luck.Whom did she vote for?.

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  • Asd:

    1 dola is also value.. what you all expecting ? Value of 1m ?? You can only go continue to kid yourself.

    What is the meaning of 99 year ?

    Why you all continue to choose to believe in fairy tales just because you cannot accept the truth ?

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  • oxygen:

    @ Another class action sue?

    DON’T EVEN THINK OF SUING, you die CAWKED standing. PAPpypolitics have both the sword and the shield all covered.

    Why?

    AFTER YOU FULLY PAID UP your mortgage, HDB will supply you with a title document which said EXPLICITLY that HDB, a body incorporated under the HDB Act is the leasor (which can only in fact and in law the owner because you can’t lease out any interest in an asset or property unless you owns it – otherwise it is like taking your Lamborghini and rent it out for profit like a THIEF). That transfer document also states your name of what address, paid one specific unique amount of money as payment consideration of a lease term of 99 yrs from what date commencing and you are the TENANT.

    As tenant/lessee named in the transfer document, YOU CANNOT BE THE LEASOR OR OWNER. AND SINCE BY YOUR OWN CHOICE OF SILENCE AND PROTEST for however long since that document, duly stamped – YOU ARE PRECLUDED IN COMMON LAW OF DENYING ITS ASSERTION IN THAT CONTENT IS FALSE. In other words, after full settlement of financial sum, YOU ARE STILL TENANT/LEESEE AND HDB, in your acknowledged silence, is in fact and in law, THE OWNER!!

    How can you now turned and sue them for any property rights claims when you have “ACCEPTED BY YOUR OWN CONDUCT” that HDB is owner/leasor and you as TENANT leasing from them for 99 years paid in advance ON THEIR ORDERED TERMS?

    In property law concepts, the case illumination in Parker vs British Airways Board says two deciding elements of law determination of who is “owner” of that property in dispute. These are

    - animus possidendi (the right to possession in layman terms)
    - animus domini (the right to possession and determine the finality of outcome of the true owner in layman term)

    As lessee, you get animus possidendi i.e. the right of dwelling occupation and use, including sub-renting, even sell the lease for residual unexpired life etc). You have no other property rights.

    HDB remains the animus domini – they decided you paid the lease upfront. When you sell, you surrender doc to HDB who then issue a new lease to the next buyer. HDB is owner dictating terms of transaction INCLUDING EXTRACTING A RESALE LEVY from you.

    MND say U as “owner” can rent, sell, and keep the proceed BUT SILENT THAT THDB share YOUR PROCEED also PROVE THEY ARE CO-OWNER of your flat after U fully paid up.

    HDB sure win.

    Another class action sue?: Time for old HDB owners to gather and sue the government and the ministers who promised in black and white that their HDB values will ONLY GO UP.

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  • WakeupSG:

    “- on keeping proceeds of sales, this one is A REAL HOAX OF FART OF FICTION. HDB extracted a resale levy (if you downgrade via another BTO purchase). If receipt of proceeds “prove” ownership, IS HDB IS STILL HIDDEN OWNER AFTER THE SALE TO THE PURCHASER?”

    Just because HDB allows the tenants to rent or sell their flats & keep the rental or sales proceeds still do not change the status of lessee shown in the title deed as HDB IS STILL THE LEGAL OWNER!

    I stand corrected.

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  • AMK Kebun:

    I was at ang mo kio Kebun estate, I think Kebun baru.

    The flats there look like one of the oldest flats still existing in SG . I checked and found them to be at least 40 years old.

    The area is HILLY and not easily accessible in terms of having elderlies to walk up and down the hills

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  • Jman:

    As an individual who has spent so many years in senior positions, surely Mr Tan Kin Lian would know how lacklustre the property market is? And the financial issues many property agents are facing? Do you even wonder why they behave in that way, wanting to close property deals? Is it even remotely a surprise, for you?

    And everyone have their own problems. And it is not just Miss X.

    How did an issue like this make it to this forum? What do you want to be done about this? Who do you want to take action on this matter? And what remedy do you propose?

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