Hong Kong

Hong Kong can be considered as my second home as for the past two decades, I have been shuttling between Singapore and Hong Kong very frequently.

I could only envy and admire the level of civic and political consciousness of Hong Kongers which sometimes seems to contradict the usual stereotyping them as materialistic, selfish and money minded.

Many people don’t really understand why a simple amendment to its extradition law could end up in massive protest march and the current Occupy Central II.

When this amendment of extradition law was first raised, I immediately sense that it will become a hot key issue which may eventually result in either massive protest or accelerated decline of Hong Kong with massive retreat of foreign investments as well as migration of people out of Hong Kong much serious than the pre-1997 era.

The reasons are simply:

1) The basic hierarchy of needs doesn’t start with feeding the stomach but rather, safety of living environment. Majority of Hong Kongers have little trust in China’s judiciary system and its police force. This is due to the many bad practices in China which are in total contradictions of Hong Kong’s system of Separation of Power and rule of law.

2) President Xi’s remarks on the judiciary as the tool of CCP the ruling class and claiming that China doesn’t believe in Separation of Powers further enhance the perception that one will not have a fair trial in China.

3) Such great disparity of Core Values created an inherent fear of safety from China’s judiciary system.

4) Some argue that there are already countries signed extradition agreement with China, why should Hong Kong, being part of China, be afraid to do so? It is precisely the proximity of Hong Kong and the massive economic integrations of HK into Chinese economy that create such fear.

5) The political struggle among the ruling elites in China may create lots of purging from time to time. Inevitably, many business deals will be subjected to unfair scrutiny. These may implicate Hong Kongers doing business in China.

6) It is precisely because the ruling elites in Hong Kong are seento be too closely controlled by China that Hong Kongers feel that they will oblige to whatever extradition requests made by Chinese masters in Beijing!

7) Most MNCs preferred to put their business HQ in Hong Kong instead of China is basically because they have great trust in HK Rule of Law. It provides an assurance of Safety guard against foul play. But if the integrity of HK rule of law is to be tainted or compromised by this extradition law, they will no longer feel safe.

Thus the extradition law may just initiate an exodus of foreign investments and talents from Hong Kong. It will kill HK eventually, politically and economically.

Who will benefit? Singapore.

 

Goh Meng Seng

 

 

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49 Responses to “Hong Kong”

  • Flabbergasted:

    what are you advocating? chaos?

    and you want people to vote for you?

    much as I dislike PAP, I don’t think we should create trouble.

    I think you will be the first to run-road when things go awry.

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  • vinicent tan:

    whats Common among these politicians..
    khawBoonWan. Pichuteriay. SimAnn, and CheeSoonJuan ?
    >>>answer They all on 2Feet-ON-2Boats !!!<<<>>Two-Boater<<<<
    it really PissOff voters…
    a merdeka voter sincere advise
    but I do admire your frankness…
    regards

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  • Mai tu liao.:

    Thank you Mr Goh.

    Didn’t knew you could write so well.

    Very insightful.

    Have you booked your air ticket to Hong Kong?

    Please hurry. Return to Hong Kong now for the sake of Sg.

    Like you said, SG will benefit from it.

    Singapore will not notice your absence. Don’t worry just go.

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  • One door closes, another opens:

    Let’s not be naive. Rightly or wrongly, initial reactions will always be negative but when the dust settles down, believe me, when one goes out another and more will gladly move in. When the British moved out of Hong Kong, people painted a doomsday scenario for the former British Colony. Property prices plummeted but the smart and opportunists moved in and I know of many friends who made their fortune because they know that what goes down must also come up and vice versa. Of course, they will also be external forces attempting to destabilize the situation but that’s another story.

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  • N.Jungne:

    Impatient on the part of China and that Chabo

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  • Perfect Aristocrats Party:

    Hong Kongers are smart and brave and do not trust their Govie blindly unlike the daft singaporeans.

    Protests are often peaceful. Usually it turned ugly only because the Govie used force.

    Now that HK govie has sent the riot police, our heartless and greedy pap govie must be rubbing their hands in glee, silently praying for the protest to fail and the extradition law to be passed so that pap will ‘kio tio’ (grab) more investments and talents.

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  • never give up:

    Many say with 70% sheep in Singapore, there is no hope for the small island.

    We disagree.

    Because humans are more or less the same. Many did say Qing dynasty peasants won’t change and the empress dowager would rule forever. How wrong. Qing dynasty peasants revolted, and Qing dynasty is no more.

    So the same with 70% sheep.

    As soon as the pain threshold is breached, 70% sheep shall wake up and vote OPPO and Singaporeans shall finally get to know the truth of the nepotism cronyism corruption in clown pap S$m gang.

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  • SIN at terminal stage:

    An ultra criteria of democracy lies in its tenet if Separation of Power n the Law. This is embraced in the Constitution by the stipulation of the independence of Judiciary n Law enforcing institutions eg SPF, AGC …, n of the finance n commercial regularors eg AGO, CPIB … The law re conflict of interest is significant in the appointment of the Senior Officers of these institutions particularly the Head of the institution to avoid compromising of the Separation of Power n Law of the Land. The appointment of Lucien Wong, a personal lawyer of the PM as AG of AGC n Ms Goh Swee Poh, wife of SMOS of Defence as AG of AGO. The response in support comes from the the Cabin Members re career success negate conflict of interest n no involvement of Heng in Auditing meaning PAP can redefine anything they fancy as long as it is to their advantage n concealment. The CPIB well gribbed under the arms of the PM by it being housed in PMO is really flaunting the Constitution. The legislation of ministers having the power of a public prosecution, a private court n judge really make mockery of the constitution n pouring shits over democracy. If more significantly Power n Law are not fused into one entity. This seems no different from Communism which the Sr Pioneer Generation LKY has went all out in total fury against Communist suspects n activist thru ISA, imprisonment without trial n time limit on the excuse of protecting democracy. The very fact of punishment with judicial procedure is in itself undemocractic. Using undemocratic procedure to protect democracy is like a vegann claimimg pork soup is soup n not meat. drinking pork soup.

    Isn’t SIN now in its terminal stage of Rotting “separate of power n Laws” virus attack with the legislation of ministers, public prosecutor n judge of his private court all in one incurring no trial, chance of defence n strict avoidance of conflict of interest between the prosector n his compatroits n the persecuted

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  • Rabble-rouser:

    HK’s democracy death was just a matter of time as PRC politburo reintegrated HK within their Paramount State political sphere. But I disagree with Goh Meng Seng’s assessment of S’pore benefitting from HK’s demise. POFMA is a key example of a broad sword killing off civil constructive arguments without questions/debate – an act of killing off democracy. The same thing as what China is doing with HK except HKongers are more gutsy to challenge the authorities there. In S’pore, 70% S’poreans just accept without daring to agitate (more compliant, more obedient)!
    The USA/China trade wars will benefit SEA tremendously except for S’pore. Why? See the Belt Road Initiative (BRI), it surgically removed S’pore from the BRI equation. Besides, S’pore’s high cost structure, high housing cost & lack of a hinterland are investment disincentives that make S’pore a poor choice. Our SGX universe of companies had been eroding over the last 10 years & the Bourse capitalisation had been halved compared to our ASEAN neighbours. The signs are all there but many S’poreans are blind to it living in their own bubble.

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  • Ahsor:

    China go to add a letter “C”

    To Hong kong.changing it to

    CHong Kong!

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  • TruBlu:

    Tru,GMS.
    BUT,Sg elite$ benefit,NOT common sgs.
    Sgs will still be replaced and at even faster rate.
    Sgs will still be bashed.
    We only help *FT-OFFENDERS* to escape from trehe LAW?
    So,more RICH CRIMINAL$ WANT TO COME HERE.
    They wont face extradition,they will be assisted and set free.
    Which crook$ do not want to come here?

    HK is still a better place for its citizens.
    At least HK PEOPLE ARE UNITED.
    WHAT ABOUT us?
    Only good at bashing each other?

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  • Harder Truths:

    GMS

    Many $G are dual citizens nowadays. It does not mean having another formally recognised citizenship on a piece of paper – just their personal loyalty to another country as well the piece of paper as an $G citizen.

    Don’t get me wrong. That is ok by me. Who wants to be a no-way-out citizen of this communist island full of backstabbing naturalised migrants where the ‘loyal’ locals have to beg for everything?

    Hong Kong is ethnically Chinese and that is why you fell at home with your own people. Here in $G there is only different ethnic FT groups looking out for each other.

    There can be no loyalty in a place like $G unless it is bought and paid for. It is a place to take advantage of everyone lese and then move on. Anyone who cannot accept this reality will not be able to survive.

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  • MaMon:

    attempting to come up with any script other than the only script written on the matter from the beginning, and the end of the matter, will continue to show up your foolhardiness and reap the consequences of shed blood and war – economic, social and nation to nation conflicts(from oppression to aggression)

    Not only Chinese don’t trust the Chinese(if they don’t trust their own race, do you think they ‘should’ even trust the foreigners, their self interest competitors, in their midst?), the Chinese have shown they are fearful of the ruthless Chinese in the mainland because they are sowing the seed of “lawlessness” from Singapore(equally ruthless in the rule of law).

    The land becomes lawless when the head s*ake decides what is lawful. Under the rule of man system, the law can never be independent and is and will be a tool of execution by the Sinful Head.

    Singapore, because of greed and self glory, was that seed of destruction(contributed/sown to the rise of the dragon, bearing the same image)and how can it be better unless your conscience is as seared by years of conditioning and programming?( they are predominantly chinese)

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  • Crony fake-ism can't do:

    For your information sir, Hong Kong also has an excellent public health care system that caters to between 8-10 million people. I’ve heard it from their citizens’ mouths how affordably and efficiently the sick are treated over there.
    Don’t we have over 80 billion Singapore $$$ stored up in our Medisave piggy bank?

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  • LoseLose:

    it is a no win here. If the Chinese supreme leader cave in/surrender because the stupid sheep threw up a tantrum, where will he hide his presidential/PM/emperor face?

    The Supreme leader must be feared, thus said LKY.

    If the stupid sheep wins, China then will look like a failure(humiliation) compared to tiny Singapore in the “rule of the gallotine”.

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  • Bad Boy:

    Although i dont see eye to eye with Mr Goh many articles but freedom of expression freedom of speech, let him speak.

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  • Haigen-Diaz:

    Don’t expect China to back down: what would be the motive?

    One can only assume that Xi Jinping, has concluded that Hong Kong’s importance to China, once immense as essentially an offshore financial sector that drew in foreign currencies, has faded dramatically with China’s growth as an economic colossus and the strength of its own currency — when that currency becomes fully convertible, the talk is that financial transactions will take place in Shanghai, not in Hong Kong.

    What better time to deal with a cultural and organizational outlier than now? One has to sympathize with Hong Kong, finding as it has an enormous stack of chips on its side of the table diminish to something quite substantially less in value than it was. But such is life; and, frankly, as soon as China began its long economic resurgence, Hong Kong should have predicted this and done something about it.

    What could they have done? Devise, invest in and build another unique advantage that China couldn’t easily or quickly match without them. What might it have been? Well, one thought might have been accepting less profit on transactions to lock in global banking relationships that wouldn’t be easy for counter-parties to duplicate elsewhere. But the Hong Kong moneyed have well-paid advisors to help them identify such alternative strategies; and apparently didn’t use them.

    The power handover of 1997 was always only a face-saving measure, whose only hope for effectiveness was the belief that China would not wish to kill the goose that laid the golden egg and would peacefully integrate into the prevailing global consensus. But given China’s unprecedented growth in power and prosperity, it no longer feels the need to pretend about its nature or accept restrictions on its national territory.

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  • US 7th Fleet:

    Like that bobian, to survive must get US to base some of 7th fleet in SG.

    Last time UK based its fleet here, SG prosper.

    Maybe US fleet also can prosper SG.

    Rabble-rouser:

    The USA/China trade wars will benefit SEA tremendously except for S’pore. Why? See the Belt Road Initiative (BRI), it surgically removed S’pore from the BRI equation.

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  • Haigen-Diaz:

    I think the bill is a catalyst stoking the latent fears of HKers that the tide is against them in general. Yet, when you consider the freedoms which remain in HK by dint of the discretion of Beijing there is plenty to be afraid of. When HKers look across the water to how mainlanders are monitored and controlled and denied access to information, they can foresee the erosion in their precious city too.

    Carrie Lam, who was elected from a field of candidates (not simply appointed), has explained that this law would not work (any extradition request would have to meet the legal requirements of Hong Kong’s common law system), and that there would be opportunities to tweak it later as necessary. This would allow people to be brought back to Hong Kong for justice. As things stand it seems that justice would actually be served by this law.

    Most HK elite natives and all expats have dual identities and passports which was always essential for their arbitrage existence. Plus they all have squirreled away assets tax free from their native tax authorities. Probably positive for the USD and SGD from outflows. What’s unclear is the impact will be for corporate contracts as well as people wanted by China who became wealthy through appreciating land value/property values alone in mainland and then got HK residency/passports before using that to get a 3rd national identity abroad.

    As with many headline political issues, there is more to it than meets the eye. The nuance based Chinese governance practiced since eighties now since disappeared in the Xi regime and a series of crisis are emerging in Chinese political scenes- Trade war with US, insecurity of Chinese private sectors and foreign investors, rare earth metals as diplomatic tools, assertiveness of Chinese political systems and global resistance to belt and road vision. The dangers and contradictions of autocratic government started showing signs. The time will tell how long this Chinese experiment will last.

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  • Rabble-rouser:

    @ US 7th Fleet:
    US no longer the World’s policeman & are retreating. The US political situation is an ongoing civil war between the liberals & conservatives. Trump is a divisive US President creating a lot of turmoil & uncertainty. And S’pore geopolitical stance is not only an obstacle (US-centric & pro-Israel in a Muslim neighbourhood) but also quite out of touch.

    US 7th Fleet:
    Like that bobian, to survive must get US to base some of 7th fleet in SG.

    Last time UK based its fleet here, SG prosper.

    Maybe US fleet also can prosper SG.

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  • mike:

    @ GMS

    Spot on! Singapore ultimately will benefits from other’s woes. Already there are waves of Hong Kong people quietly buy up properties in Singapore for run-road purpose many moons ago.

    Perhaps some of the largest swing since 1997.

    Today, many HKers heart is dead whoever cannot leave are left to struggle and fight for their freedom.

    The next few years price of private property in SG will still increase stable if not strong, as westerners continue moving out of HK in waves and shield investments protection from CN.

    If SG gov should take this opportunity to secure the dollars, it would be at least another 10 years of strong economy. Money speaks and timely action will make the best out of the situation.

    HDB resale market will revive again!

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  • CCCPIGS:

    Finally, a singaporean who dares talk about the Hong Kong protest.That says a lot about singaporeans.

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  • Exodus is what they want:

    I think its in china interest that those against leave hong kong.

    China can easily fill hong kong with her communists. This will make HK into just another city of china. This is what the chia official said they want to do to hk. To make it as controlled and obedient as another china city. Dictatorship.

    Likewise, a state in asia is also trying to bum up its population . Immigrants will be pro govt. Thats why they enter that country for citizenship. So, the rising dissent can be handled by forcing them out. The advertising for new citizens will attract more than enough to replace the whole population .

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  • Exodus is what they want:

    Flabbergasted:
    what are you advocating? chaos?

    and you want people to vote for you?

    much as I dislike PAP, I don’t think we should create trouble.

    I think you will be the first to run-road when things go awry.

    What solution do you have then?
    Play by the rules created to disadvantage opposition?

    People like you will say boh bian to everything in the last half a century.

    You are just a IB trying to disguise as a opposition supporter.

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  • Singaporean Kong Come:

    The USA/China trade wars will benefit SEA tremendously except for Sg. Why? See the Belt Road Initiative (BRI), it surgically removed Sg from the BRI equation. Sg have nothing to offer, accept act as a political pimps. Like the Ashman. he act as a poitical pimps very sucessfully. Now the modern world has a lot of pimps, so they (BRI) don’t need such too expensive pimps.

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  • Rabble-rouser:

    HK & S’pore are increasingly obsolete economic, banking & financial centres that will be rendered irrelevant, uncompetitive & outmoded in the future:
    * by the forthcoming technological evolution of disruptive financial innovations;
    * by the financial mechanisms shifting over to the web & cyberspace (low-cost technological eco-system) vs physical locations (read: expensive brick ‘n mortars & extremely lo-tech);
    * by the rise of the non-banking technological entities providing financial services (much like the ride-share apps vs taxi companies); &
    * by the coming end of the US$ as the world’s reserve currency (crypto currencies, gold backed financial instruments, etc).
    HK & S’pore are stucked in the past mainly due to ageing demographics (main core of population growing old & risk adverse); political stagnation (politics more concerned with keeping the Status Quo vs disruption; getting more aristocratic, more cronyism vs allowing for disruptive market growth orientation); & a lack of urgency, inherent hunger & economic vibrancy (complacency sets in, privilege & entitlement thinking (…of elitists & Meritocracy products) vs entrepreneurship, enterprise thinking & risk taking (rising expectations of the young & restless).
    The US$ reserve currency & their global hegemony is eroding & breaking up rapidly. It is not gold, but rather oil (Petro-dollars) & the US/China trade wars that will be the cause of it. Oil is slowly being disrupted by innovations in renewable energies (…the global oil driven economy & it’s structures being technologically disrupted), increasingly low-usage of fossil fuels from industry & from households (electric cars, smart homes, etc). Oil will be less in demand by the market in the future. What happens next will be anyone’s guess?

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  • Darth Vader:

    Hey gms, if HK & China BOTH lose foreign investors to Singapore who employ locals instead of foreigners then isn’t it good for us? So WHY should you be so upset about it? Oh yeah, that’s right, this asshole once said that to make SMRT great again the local maintenance staff have to be replaced by hongkies & tiongs when in fact the root cause of SMRT’s problems is incompetent leadership, ESPECIALLY a corrupt vp engineering that fostered a culture of cover-ups and falsification of reports

    So gms, since both you & your good buddy tkl love China’s totalitarian dictatorship so much, why don’t you both migrate there and never return? We’ll all be better off without you two crapheads

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  • To Mai Tu Liao:

    Mai tu liao.:
    Thank you Mr Goh.

    Didn’t knew you could write so well.

    Very insightful.

    Have you booked your air ticket to Hong Kong?

    Please hurry. Return to Hong Kong now for the sake of Sg.

    Like you said, SG will benefit from it.

    Singapore will not notice your absence. Don’t worry just go.

    What’s wrong with Mr Gov expressing his views? If you dun like just shut up.
    No need to suan him like this.
    It’s useless good for nothing people like you that prevented Singapore opposition growing in SG.

    You are a IB aka prostitute.

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  • mike:

    @ To Mai Tu Liao

    Please apologise! You are insulting prostitutes! IBs cannot and should not be compared to sex-workers! While Prostitues uses their body for honest living, which we should respect them in their part in helping to lower crimes like rapes, comparing IBs to Prostitutes is AN HORRIBLE INSULT.

    IBs just take $$$ and screw others even if it takes to do it on one another they will. :))))

    To Mai Tu Liao:
    You are a IB aka prostitute.

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  • Paradise Dreaming:

    mike:
    @ GMS

    Spot on! Singapore ultimately will benefits from other’s woes. Already there are waves of Hong Kong people quietly buy up properties in Singapore for run-road purpose many moons ago.

    Perhaps some of the largest swing since 1997.

    Today, many HKers heart is dead whoever cannot leave are left to struggle and fight for their freedom.

    The next few years price of private property in SG will still increase stable if not strong, as westerners continue moving out of HK in waves and shield investments protection from CN.

    If SG gov should take this opportunity to secure the dollars, it would be at least another 10 years of strong economy. Money speaks and timely action will make the best out of the situation.

    HDB resale market will revive again!

    Still dreaming, many already started moving to Canada again.
    Those who can’t meet the points system of the famous five, might pick this place as a last resort or stay put.
    Another dreaming thing, though many do not want to be ruled by China, they will still gladly do business in China, so an opportunity for strong economy base on this incident is just plain bullshit and pipedream for SG.

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  • UFO Man:

    Don’t we have over 80 billion Singapore $$$ stored up in our Medisave piggy bank? No transparency, the kentuckyman can dig out the $$$$ 27times. Oh the Minister salary not enough.

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  • Haigen-Diaz:

    As the Communist Chinese footprint becomes more prevalent in Hong Kong, its cache as one of the world’s most important financial centers, ranking just below London and New York will continue to diminish. No rational observer would have expected the Chinese government to abide by the Basic Law in the long run, or, rather, not to interpret it in ways that were more repressive rather than less.

    As greed, corruption, and property prices spiral out of control, often spearheaded by Hong Kong’s role as a leading international financial centre that depends on the American dollar continuing to be the world’s foreign reserve, you can expect the central government to impose a silent boycott to severely reduce (cripple) Hong Kong’s influence.

    That’s one reason why wealthy residents of Hong Kong have continued to buy property in North America, in particular on the west coast of the United States and Canada. Singapore can woo the wealthy of Hong Kong but only the fools among them wouldn’t hedge their bets.

    My feeling is that for most Chinese, the longer the protests, the more strike they got, the better for China. God bless them, if the protests and strike could last for a couple of years, at least a few months, so Hong Kong can be a dead city and become irrelevant to China. This protest is just what China’s leaders needed.

    n any event, the 1984 agreement guarantees Hong Kong its current, semi-democratic government only until 2047. It remains a race against time: will China democratize by then, and tolerate a semi-democratic Hong Kong, or will China remain authoritarian, and 2047 spell the end of Hong Kong’s limited self-rule? HK is part of China and cannot be totally independent of China. Indeed HK’s future as a major financial center is bleak – both Beijing and Shanghai are becoming more important by the year.

    Global corporations seem to see less appeal in Hong Kong these days.
    HK has lost its manufacturing industry and its services are easily transferable. HK is not so important to China any more. Beijing will probably not interfere publicly in the current protests – nothing to gain and plenty to lose.

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  • Rabble-rouser:

    @ Haigen-Diaz:
    Brilliant Analyses! You’ve nailed it correctly!
    Rich Hong Kong’ers have already hedged their bets long ago! The HK Industrialists had re-integrated with China in the Pearl River Delta region when China opened for business in the late 1980s to 1990s to pre-empt eventual China State Enterprise forays into their businesses as competitors. The wealthy have already attained dual citizenship & already owned numerous properties in North America especially on the West Coast side. Vancouver, BC is actually Hong Kong’s richest suburb abide some geographical distance away.
    The key is the arbitrary HK$ peg to the US$. But in Trump’s trade war with China, it has become an financial anomaly for the US while China finds it unpalatable supporting the US$ indirectly by defending the HK$ forex peg.
    The current ones driving the HK property market to new highs are the Mainland Chinese themselves (as both developers & property investors), not the Hong Kong’ers. They, too, are exploiting the financial & migratory loophole which rich Hong Kong’ers had exploited in the early 1990s to hedge against HK handover to China in 1997. It’s an old playbook maneuver being reused by the Mainland Chinese themselves.
    Regarding S’pore, our property play & prices psf are just too prohibitive & expensive to the Mainlanders. Just take a trip over the 2nd Link to JB, you would realised the huge JB property investments by Chinese developers especially Country Garden (Dunga Bay, Forest City). The Chinese property buyers for JB aren’t the sophisticated type (Guangzhou/Shanghai type), being the 2nd/3rd tier Chinese city dwellers;
    Noticed how the established Hong Kong businesses are expanding out from Hong Kong into the region re: Tim Ho Wan, Kam’s Roast Duck, Chow Tai Fook jewellery, etc.
    In a gist, HK’s future had already been hollowed out by their own people (the true & rich Hong Kong’ers). The ones left are those who have little influence over the course of nature or are Mainlanders themselves hoping to replicate the well-trodden paths of their Hong Kong cousins.

    Haigen-Diaz: That’s one reason why wealthy residents of Hong Kong have continued to buy property in North America, in particular on the west coast of the United States and Canada. Singapore can woo the wealthy of Hong Kong but only the fools among them wouldn’t hedge their bets.

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  • mike:

    Dreams is what keeps this world running. You are dreaming if you did not realize that.

    When i sell you Nike, i sell you dream.
    When i sell you hokkien mee, i also sell you dream.
    When the lady/man is going to marry you, you are sold with a dream.

    When you run-road to whatever place, you are buying into a news dream.

    If you do not realize that, then you are kidding me. Reckon that? No?
    When you wake up, you have come to the end of this life journey.

    So what the heck you bother with other’s dream? The key thing is economy has never shy away from population policies. No population, economy is dead. Choose your place to live while you can. For those who can’t, fight on.

    Paradise Dreaming: Still dreaming, many already started moving to Canada again.
    Those who can’t meet the points system of the famous five, might pick this place as a last resort or stay put.
    Another dreaming thing, though many do not want to be ruled by China, they will still gladly do business in China, so an opportunity for strong economy base on this incident is just plain bullshit and pipedream for SG.

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  • vincent tan:

    sentosa cove properties at HistoricallyLOW !
    some selling at half the investment capital… poor thing.
    maybe the extradition scare is a blessing to these desparate
    multi millions s.cove properties owners,
    Hope the rich hongkongers see the lelong sales.

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  • oxygen:

    @ Flabbergasted

    THERE IS ORDER IN CHAOS as there are chaos in order. HDB and CPF are all VERY “ORDERLY” in policy formulation, what happens to them now?

    Are both NOT in chaos of silent disappearance now in value depletion or vaporized disappearance?

    Sadly, your mind thinks exactly like a floating cup which will still sink when filled with rain water in the open calm lake.

    Flabbergasted: what are you advocating? chaos?

    and you want people to vote for you?

    much as I dislike PAP, I don’t think we should create trouble.

    I think you will be the first to run-road when things go awry.

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  • oxygen:

    @ Mike

    DREAMS AND NORMATIVE NARRATIVES are great but they have to survive the test of reality.

    I cannot see HKgers rushing to LEE-jiapore to play the property game – their preferred sanctuary is Australia and Canada WHICH IS DOMINATED BY PRCs among “rich” foreign influx.

    There is no evidence of rich foreign migration to LEE-jiapore – an authoritarian enclave of seeming nowhere in their minds – historically. The rich foreign arrival in LEE-jiapore are Chinese PRC, India, Indonesia and Malaysia.

    Why would their dreams transported here instead of Canada and Down Under? I don’t comprehend your dreams!

    mike: Dreams is what keeps this world running. You are dreaming if you did not realize that.

    When i sell you Nike, i sell you dream.
    When i sell you hokkien mee, i also sell you dream.
    When the lady/man is going to marry you, you are sold with a dream.

    When you run-road to whatever place, you are buying into a news dream.

    If you do not realize that, then you are kidding me. Reckon that? No?
    When you wake up, you have come to the end of this life journey.

    So what the heck you bother with other’s dream? The key thing is economy has never shy away from population policies. No population, economy is dead. Choose your place to live while you can. For those who can’t, fight on.

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  • No Dafts or Dogs Allowed:

    mike:
    When i sell you Nike, i sell you dream.
    When i sell you hokkien mee, i also sell you dream.
    When the lady/man is going to marry you, you are sold with a dream.

    Happen to notice what you wrote below to @Paradise Dreaming and don’t mind I give my 2cents worth.
    Firstly, a dream is still a dream and only for dreamers.
    Secondly, if you sell me a nike, I will literally tear it apart to examine its’ details before deciding to buy. Same goes for a mate.

    Those HKers unlike dafts here are very practical. You can’t sell them a dream and expect them to fall for it!

    Disclaimer: I cannot be held responsible for the opinions above, as apparently one of my dogs has learned how to type.

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  • Rabble-rouser:

    @ Mike:
    What dreams? Does S’pore inspire any dreams? I don’t think so! All I see in S’pore are only crushed dreams for the masses:
    * “You can’t eat your degree!” Official Statements/Ongoing Elitism & Meritocracy Policy, masses make do with driving Grab, Gojek or food delivery using e-bikes;
    * “Give up the prospect of “owning” a car” Exultations/Fostering a Car-Lite society, masses suffer taking congested Public Transportation; &
    * “You can die but not get sick in S’pore” Memes/Corporate (expensive) Medicine, masses long, long wait & queues at Public Health facilities.

    Look at the suicide statistics in S’pore:
    * Youngsters killed themselves after getting poor exam grades;
    * Middle-aged people killed themselves after losing their jobs or owed a lot of money to Tai-Yee Loongs;
    * Elderly people killed themselves afraid of no money for medical expenses or are afraid of burdening their families with illness.

    What is the common thread here? It is the DEATH OF DREAMS. You only killed yourself because there is no dream at the end of the rainbow, only nightmares & insecurities.
    The only people who can dream in S’pore are the u-noe-whos. They are characterised by:
    * high pay & artificial bonuses;
    * $8 heart bypass & medical insurance paid by the State as part of their entitlement, all others used Medisave;
    * have a job for life & able to see their monthly CPF Statements without worry, the rest have to contend with competition from foreigners.

    Dunno about your economics pedigree ie. “No population, economy is dead” type theory? Population growth policies don’t make good economic sense. It is market enterprise & ingenuity that create a good economy, not population growth policies. You have either been fed bull-s**t or are bull-s**front yourself! Don’t be a waste of space!

    mike:
    Dreams is what keeps this world running. You are dreaming if you did not realize that.

    When i sell you Nike, i sell you dream.
    When i sell you hokkien mee, i also sell you dream.
    When the lady/man is going to marry you, you are sold with a dream.

    When you run-road to whatever place, you are buying into a news dream.

    If you do not realize that, then you are kidding me. Reckon that? No?
    When you wake up, you have come to the end of this life journey.

    So what the heck you bother with other’s dream? The key thing is economy has never shy away from population policies. No population, economy is dead. Choose your place to live while you can. For those who can’t, fight on.

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  • mike:

    @ oxygen

    There is no doubt for those who have capacity to choose, where would be a better choice.

    Canada, Oz or Uk. Or even SG. There are many factors affecting individual/family decisions.

    Given a choice, most would go to oz. Weather and environment plays an important part too when capital/money moving 0problem are solved. But one thing we should not forget is that migrating to oz is fast getting more difficult as oz is controlling large funds inflow from certain nations as compared to yesteryears.

    Whether we appreciate it or not. Funds from HK are moving into SG steadily. And i do agree that most HKers today have CN origin after 1997 which most of them shift $$$ from CN to HK as easier jumping board to spring out into the world.

    I cannot argue with you that most will prefer to Canada or Oz. Yet on the other hand, we cannot deny the fact that SG is a preferred location in terms of distance, large chinese community and “stable” autocratic society similar to their home as people are still used to.

    Narratives ARE realities. Should not confused it with poems. And it is a fact that two person in a same environment may get two different ‘reality’. Thus reality is very subjective and only a mass behaviour justify a larger environment.

    If 10% of those out flowing from HK comes in SG direction for whatever reasons, SG still benefits and the economy still raised. Not to forget such funds may also contain good opportunities for gov controlled individuals to run along with others infiltrating foreign economies.

    Thank you for allowing me to challenge some thoughts. Cheers

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  • mike:

    @ No Dafts or Dogs Allowed

    Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

    HKers are indeed practical people. I have few good opportunities to meet people who left HK more than 20years ago. And also ‘new’ HKers who recently explore new world opportunities.

    They have differences. We are not talking about those who are strangled and unable to move out of HK, they have to fight on.

    “New” HKers are mostly mainland chinese who are less politic/right savvy and more simply goes where $$ flowws

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  • mike:

    @ Rabble-rouser

    U r entitled to your opinions. Don’t have to upset with dreams. Cool it bro.

    Population policies has been backbone of many economies. This is a fact no matter how much you think it is stupid. Unfortunately SG is just a tiny city. Nowhere to run for the people. Unlike huge countries i can always choose between a packed vibrant costly city life or choose to stay 2hrs drive away into lesser population area.

    I fed BS haha… you are entitled to your opinion. Speak nicely, dont have to be so upset in a discussion.

    Rabble-rouser:
    @ Mike:

    Dunno about your economics pedigree ie. “No population, economy is dead” type theory? Population growth policies don’t make good economic sense. It is market enterprise & ingenuity that create a good economy, not population growth policies. You have either been fed bull-s**t or are bull-s**front yourself! Don’t be a waste of space!

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  • mike:

    Anyone who wish to discuss a zero-sum game with population growth economy i would welcome it. We will just getting nowhere. The early you realize that for your family and yourself the earlier u can make adjustments to get out of the shithole into a new environment that suits your future needs.

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  • oxygen:

    @ Mike

    THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR ADDING FURTHER TO THE CONVERSATION of DIVERGENT THOUGHTS. This thread has a lot of very insightful contributory thoughts from many forummers – THANKS TO YOU AND ALL.

    mike: Thank you for allowing me to challenge some thoughts. Cheers</blockquote

    And yes , perception is "reality" in the minds of decision-making – this phenomena is similar in the investing world too.

    That said, that PERCEIVED "realities" will be challenge over time, and some will fail.

    As for HKgers coming to LEE-jiapore, I have not heard much of this happening in the 1980s and 1997 – before the handovers. HK stocks were traded on HKSE below their liquidated cash value backing per share BUT HEARD NOTHING OF HK MONEY FLOWING INTO SINGAPORE THEN.

    So I have my doubts it will change now – OF COURSE THIS IS ONLY MY VALUE JUDGMENT OF OPINION. I could be right or wrong. My compelling doubt comes from this logic – WHY WOULD HKGERS FLEE TO ANOTHER AUTOCRATIC RULE IN LEE-JIAPORE if their intent is to escape oppression of Chinese rule?

    Me thinks Canada, Down Under are "better" destinations of freedom in political space and scope for entrepreneurial expressions for them.

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  • oxygen:

    @ Mike

    Apology for that quote above – it was misplaced somehow. Below is my own thoughts.

    oxygen: And yes , perception is “reality” in the minds of decision-making – this phenomena is similar in the investing world too.

    That said, that PERCEIVED “realities” will be challenge over time, and some will fail.

    As for HKgers coming to LEE-jiapore, I have not heard much of this happening in the 1980s and 1997 – before the handovers. HK stocks were traded on HKSE below their liquidated cash value backing per share BUT HEARD NOTHING OF HK MONEY FLOWING INTO SINGAPORE THEN.

    So I have my doubts it will change now – OF COURSE THIS IS ONLY MY VALUE JUDGMENT OF OPINION. I could be right or wrong. My compelling doubt comes from this logic – WHY WOULD HKGERS FLEE TO ANOTHER AUTOCRATIC RULE IN LEE-JIAPORE if their intent is to escape oppression of Chinese rule?

    Me thinks Canada, Down Under are “better” destinations of freedom in political space and scope for entrepreneurial expressions for them.

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  • mike:

    @ Oxygen

    I readily agree and accept your view about perceived realities. And definitely some would fail overtime and then be forgotten, then to repeat again.

    Many whom i knew used SG as spring board, this is no secret and SG administrators knows that all long. You could be right that SG may not be the choice as most i knew were here in SG during the early phase of the family building. Once the kids approached teenage, they sell everything and move to those places you mentioned.

    Perhaps they did not make it the initial choice, or perhaps they wanted a different environment for their kids before jumping into other wagons.

    I believe people move to protect their assets and their next generation(s), LESS about ideas and liberties. Just like i cannot understand (still stubbornly refused to although already accept the fact) that people will shift home to where the good/popular schools are. May be the impact of “Mother of Meng” story was so strong the message it gave to people that having the ‘right’ mix is important for the growth of the kids and thus makes people “do it”.(?)

    Not just Chinese, Korean and Caucasian whom i knew does that “shift to good school” thing.

    Again, it was a pleasure to share thoughts with you.
    Cheers mate.

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  • Rabble-rouser:

    @ Mike:
    Nothing personal on my part! Just that Population growth policies are such bankrupt ideas coming from politicians who have no ideas how to grow the economy. The other bankrupt idea is expanding the casinos (implicitly encouraging more gambling). These are terminal & short-termist policies which will accelerate the end of S’pore as I see it. Yet people in S’pore are still so blind to these threats!

    mike: No population, economy is dead …Population policies has been backbone of many economies. This is a fact no matter how much you think it is stupid. Unfortunately SG is just a tiny city. Nowhere to run for the people. Unlike huge countries i can always choose between a packed vibrant costly city life or choose to stay 2hrs drive away into lesser population area.

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  • patriot of TUMASIK:

    Rabble-rouser:
    HK’s democracy death was just a matter of time as PRC politburo reintegrated HK within their Paramount State political sphere. But I disagree with Goh Meng Seng’s assessment of S’pore benefitting from HK’s demise. POFMA is a key example of a broad sword killing off civil constructive arguments without questions/debate – an act of killing off democracy. The same thing as what China is doing with HK except HKongers are more gutsy to challenge the authorities there. In S’pore, 70% S’poreans just accept without daring to agitate (more compliant, more obedient)!
    The USA/China trade wars will benefit SEA tremendously except for S’pore. Why? See the Belt Road Initiative (BRI), it surgically removed S’pore from the BRI equation. Besides, S’pore’s high cost structure, high housing cost & lack of a hinterland are investment disincentives that make S’pore a poor choice. Our SGX universe of companies had been eroding over the last 10 years & the Bourse capitalisation had been halved compared to our ASEAN neighbours. The signs are all there but many S’poreans are blind to it living in their own bubble.

    I am not too sure of GMS claims that HK is his 2nd HOME…I spend 3 years in HK before the Handover and HonKongers especially those I know and work with were apprehensive of the OUTCOME…Most were ready to pack and go with their British Identity passport and were ready to sell log-stock and barrel their stakes built over decades…Cantonese being the national language you can hear in cafes and eating houses parents telling their children of the Putong language which they will have to accept NOT willingly…the Hardcore stayed as they have nowhere to go and these I believe and their children are the ONES now Rising to the Occasion of Standing UP!!!…

    Singaporeans??? CONditioned minds by a man name ConYou aptly named and paying the price of losing what was once theirs BUILT by their Forefathers

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  • mike:

    @ Rabble-rouser

    Unfortunately your observation is very real. Politician here has become lazy and growing economy has become addictive as it means larger bonus package and even promote to higher office and make more “yields”.

    Our forefathers sell their souls and obedience to the politicians to gain bits of wealth with stability. All that before our democracy can have a chance to evolve and matures. Now we are all paying a price for it.

    What we established in early years were sold or shutdown. What we have today are mostly service industry. No expertise. And even few heavy industry we left are heavily employing FOREIGN TALENTS for low cost so that the profit margin are large enough to justify bonuses for the para-militia.

    We as people deserves it don’t we?
    Yes dream, it is freakishly so real that we can no longer wake up from it. Addictive for politicians and those networks that depends on it.

    Rabble-rouser:
    @ Mike:
    Nothing personal on my part! Just that Population growth policies are such bankrupt ideas coming from politicians who have no ideas how to grow the economy. The other bankrupt idea is expanding the casinos (implicitly encouraging more gambling). These are terminal & short-termist policies which will accelerate the end of S’pore as I see it. Yet people in S’pore are still so blind to these threats!

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