Leaving debts to the next generation

Minister Chan Chun Sing said that accountability means not leaving debts to the next generation. I think that a better term to describe it is – financial responsibility.

This implies that a person is not financially responsible when he or she have to leave debts to the next generation.

Debts could be caused by spending beyond one’s means. However, it can also be caused by events beyond one’s control.

Here are some examples:

a) The family incurs a large debt due to medical bills

b) The family loses a lot of money on bad investments that were sold by approved institutions. These include the credit linked notes that went bad during the global financial crisis in 2008, the structured products that are now being sold by the banks and the recent Hyflux preference shares and perpetual securities.

c) The family over-invested in expensive HDB flats bought on the resale market which eventually have no value on expiry of the lease.

In all these cases, the government could have played a more effective role in looking after the interest of ordinary people and ensure that they are not taken advantage by more sophisticated parties.

If the government fails in this duty and responsibility, it is not acting to the standard of accountability that is expected.

 

KL Tan

 

 

yyy
SPONSORED ADVERTISEMENT
Loading...

46 Responses to “Leaving debts to the next generation”

  • Rabble-rouser:

    The Mathematical Formula for the S’pore’s Economy has many issues to reconsider:
    1. S’pore’s Demographic profile is ageing! And the older they get, the harder it is to get a job that pays them enough. Also, their medical costs goes up exponentially – this is enough to tell you where the S’pore Economy is headed;
    2. S’pore’s Economy were set up to attract foreign investments & enticed foreign capital (the “Open Economy” concept). Investments drive up S’pore’s real estate (Offices, Warehouses, Factories, etc) which over 80% were State controlled land & buildings, foreign capital flood into S’pore banking mechanism – much of the liquidity recycled into S’pore expensive property market – creating Housing Developments & New Launches (oversupply?). But globally, there are economic turmoil ie. US/China trade war, a global currency war & even potential global conflicts;
    3. PAP’s “Who doesn’t want to collect more money?” revenue enrichment mindset – govt cost-push inflation (HDB shop rental increases), indirect taxation eg. GST increase, petrol tax, etc & public goods increases ie. electricity, water & public transportation fares;
    4. SGX bourse capitalisation had halved within a decade (2008 – 2019). This indicates a significant decline in business enterprise formation & entrepreneurship. S’pore lacks domestic wealth creation & this is a worrying sign for the future; &
    5. The Govt’s increasing Infrastructural Spending & constant redevelopments (Jewel @ Changi, Sea port, Airbase Relocation) are worrying. What are their ROIs, cost-benefit viability studies or did they even do it? Jewel opened in April this year to much euphoria & massive crowds drawn to the artificial waterfall but after 3-4 months, the crowds have dissipated & the novelty wore off fairly quickly! This type of govt spending on “White Elephants” can’t sustain because it is debt to be paid through tax payers monies, future tax obligations that funds these type of extravagant spending.

    KL Tan is totally wrong! It is not about financial responsibility! It about the Dysfunctional Roles of S’pore Govt (under the PAP) which has turn everything upside down! This govt must scale down, get out of business & investments, reduce their footprint over the economy, etc.

    The Govt’s job isn’t to (over)regulate the S’pore Economy. And all Govts are unproductive, they’re not shrewd businessmen nor are they entrepreneurs, asset traders (Private sector’s job) & their basic role were redistribution of tax monies (fairer equality & income redistribution) & managed public goods like healthcare, education & public transportation to be affordable, efficient & available to the electorate.

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
  • Precedent Excuse:

    I suspect it is an “precedent excuse” for billions of loses of tax payers money.

    1) Example from Day 1, the reserves + assets are at 1B,

    2) Old man time, reserves + assets are 300B;

    3) Infilial time; left 20B

    That implies 20B minus 1B = 19B, thus no dept [still positive] for next generation, hence accountable and still good governance.

    That’s the perception.

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
  • Darth Vader:

    So once more, tkl demonstrates to everyone that he is the Supreme Grandmaster of Stupidity and Talking Nonsense. Just look at what the buffoon said

    1) A family incurring heavy debts because of a seriously ill member. So then what, tkl EXPECTS the family members to let the loved one die just to save money????!!!!

    Come to think of it, this WOULD explain WHY it’s so difficult to get NTUC Income to honor a claim…

    2) If someone in a family speculated too much on shares? Not much diffetence from gambling here now is it? Shouldn’t the family take interest in WHAT this persin is doing? And the government should have people who incurred debts this way? Is tkl even AWARE that the government actually has NO money of its own, that it’s all actually TAXPAYERS’ monies?

    Why should MY hard-earned money bail out an irresponsible stranger whose actions have nothing to do with me?

    3) Over-investing in housing? HELLO, if the family is actually owning two houses with the intention of selling one off at a fat profit, well as before, WHY should taxpayers bail them out, and for that matter, WHY can’t they try to recoup their losses by renting out the extra house and even a couple if eooms in their own flat?

    Really tkl, tpl would describe you best, complete with stamping of feet…

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
  • Darth Vader:

    Couple of rooms I mean

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
  • Left to australia in 2000:

    every generation in singapore is a cyclic debt generation. THe success of singapore was built on 100% GDP debt ratio. The next generation have to pay for it. What happens if people are not reproducing. the PAP is fcked for sure.

    SO don’t reproduce in singapore. Migrate if u can if u don’t want yr next generation to debt slave, get evicted from their homes because they are unable to pay debt. of cos these things do not affect the elite and those up there in top positions.

    Lee Kuan yew’s theory on self reliance asian values is just bullshit. There is no such thing on that Lee island . It is generational debt that the island has undertaken to show its success.

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
  • Village Chief:

    Where is OUR CPF money?
    Why reserves cannot be used to help those who accumulated them in the first place but can be squandered away?

    There is total lack of ACCOUNTABILITY.

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
  • What can we do? Vote wisely:

    PAP will say monetize your flat if you have one.
    Wonder how much PAP spends advertising the reverse mortgages schemes.
    If people still do not enough money, PAP will give you a few hundred dollars of vouchers, rebates, subsidies, but PAP need to raise GST.

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
  • Rabble-rouser:

    @ PAP.GUARANTEE.WIN.GE2019/20:
    Don’t fool yourself with such silly remarks. Don’t pull wool over S’poreans’ eyes, you piece of Turd!

    HK’gers especially the masses were suffering from income disparity & wealth inequality for many years now. The growing anger & frustrations had been mounting for some time & suddenly erupted:
    * imagine being unable to afford housing despite working for a number of years. FYI HK property prices went up by 400% since 2003 SARS crisis;
    * imagine working at dead end jobs while seeing the rich getting richer while your pay remains stagnant;
    * watching the HK wealth class living within their own world (rigid class status, scandals involving HK celebs) while the rich Mainlanders coming in displacing long-term HK’gers in the process ie. driving property prices even higher, life in HK becoming meaningless;
    * watching the Politicians favouring the rich class over the common people.

    With nothing to lose, those protest actually hurts the HK billionaires more than the masses. The HKSE stockmarket crash, the huge drop in confidence for HK properties – they erode the wealth of these people & ultimately hurt HK’s crony capitalist economy.

    The blockage of HK airport is another stake driven up the a**e of Carrie Lam’s ineffectual govt.
    And don’t fool us about rich HK’gers & their monies coming here.

    HK’gers are so much smarter than the 70% Sinkies. They see S’pore as Authoritarian & the PAP govt is more dictatorial than even the Chinese govt.

    And they are more well informed than Sinkies who only read SPH products whereas HK has a relatively free press by comparison. The HK chaos was manufactured by the HK political class in cohoots with the HK wealthy class. Which is why HK is in this situation.

    PAP.GUARANTEE.WIN.GE2019/20: Dear Readers,
    Let me open your eyes to world politics.

    Hong Kong students had been made use of by Western power agent.

    Hong Kong is now in chaos but it is good for Singapore.

    Please help yourselves to live feed of Hong Kong situation.
    If you vote opposition, Singapore will descend into chaos like Hong Kong.
    Do you want that ?

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
  • Left to australia:

    Rabble-rouser:
    @ PAP.GUARANTEE.WIN.GE2019/20:
    Don’t fool yourself with such silly remarks. Don’t pull wool over S’poreans’ eyes, you piece of Turd!

    HK’gers especially the masses were suffering from income disparity & wealth inequality for many years now. The growing anger & frustrations had been mounting for some time & suddenly erupted:
    * imagine being unable to afford housing despite working for a number of years. FYI HK property prices went up by 400% since 2003 SARS crisis;
    * imagine working at dead end jobs while seeing the rich getting richer while your pay remains stagnant;
    * watching the HK wealth class living within their own world (rigid class status, scandals involving HK celebs) while the rich Mainlanders coming in displacing long-term HK’gers in the process ie. driving property prices even higher, life in HK becoming meaningless;
    * watching the Politicians favouring the rich class over the common people.

    With nothing to lose, those protest actually hurts the HK billionaires more than the masses. The HKSE stockmarket crash, the huge drop in confidence for HK properties – they erode the wealth of these people & ultimately hurt HK’s crony capitalist economy.

    The blockage of HK airport is another stake driven up the a**e of Carrie Lam’s ineffectual govt.
    And don’t fool us about rich HK’gers & their monies coming here.

    HK’gers are so much smarter than the 70% Sinkies. They see S’pore as Authoritarian & the PAP govt is more dictatorial than even the Chinese govt.

    And they are more well informed than Sinkies who only read SPH products whereas HK has a relatively free press by comparison. The HK chaos was manufactured by the HK political class in cohoots with the HK wealthy class. Which is why HK is in this situation.

    If u bring in HK for selective comparison. THen are u living in HK? WHy not bring in Afghanistan Iraq Somalia then? PAP fool.

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
  • oxygen:

    @ Rabble rouser

    EVEN DISTINGUISHED PROMINENT ECONOMIST agrees with you.

    Economist: Hong Kong’s tycoons ‘are the problem’ underlying recent unrest.

    https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/15/hong-kong-protests-economist-says-tycoons-are-the-problem.html

    blockquote cite=”comment-1861477″>

    Rabble-rouser: watching the HK wealth class living within their own world (rigid class status, scandals involving HK celebs) while the rich Mainlanders coming in displacing long-term HK’gers in the process ie. driving property prices even higher, life in HK becoming meaningless;
    * watching the Politicians favouring the rich class over the common people.

    With nothing to lose, those protest actually hurts the HK billionaires more than the masses. The HKSE stockmarket crash, the huge drop in confidence for HK properties – they erode the wealth of these people & ultimately hurt HK’s crony capitalist economy.

    The

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
  • Haigen-Diaz:

    @ Rabblr-rouser

    Rabble-rouser: HK’gers are so much smarter than the 70% Sinkies. They see S’pore as Authoritarian & the PAP govt is more dictatorial than even the Chinese govt.

    And they are more well informed than Sinkies who only read SPH products whereas HK has a relatively free press by comparison. The HK chaos was manufactured by the HK political class in cohoots with the HK wealthy class. Which is why HK is in this situation.

    In our city-state of meticulous legislation run by the world’s most highly-paid government outside of China and North Korea, unrest of this magnitude is unthinkable. Order is essential in Singapore, which views the unrest in Hong Kong linked to protests against the Chinese government of the mainland with awe and fear.

    Protests in Singapore are limited to a park the size of a benignly softball field called Speakers’ Corner. The ‘chirping birds’ perched on the surrounding trees are the most ‘vocal group’ of the park on most days. People only show up on rare days, that it is only after their topics have been scrutinized and approved by the govt.

    The ‘stability’ of Singapore has fueled speculation that if issues continue in Hong Kong, it would be the first to profit. Head hunters, public relations companies and estate brokers claim there are no indications of a Hong Kong exodus, although it may take months for companies to schedule a relocation. At the very least, industry officials say, firms are contemplating contingencies should the worst-case scenario — armed intervention — arise in Hong Kong.

    Well, Sometimes clean and polite can morph into sterile and cold. Much the same way that seamy and crass can become exciting and intriguing.

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
  • Rabble-rouser:

    @ Left to Australia:
    PAP.GUARANTEE.WIN.GE2019/20 made the selective comparison, mate! Not me!
    I just shut him up over his ridiculous comments hoping that he would go back to M’sia to resume his rubber tapping (oxygen) or durian picking (mine). His level of intelligence possibly had to do with the hazards of durian picking! His head probably got hit by a falling durian a while back! Needed to earn 50 cents a post while recuperating from his durian inflicted injury.

    As for Afghanistan Iraq Somalia – they all have equal income & wealth equality there which is basically “all zeroes & poor” to start with.

    Left to australia: If u bring in HK for selective comparison. THen are u living in HK? WHy not bring in Afghanistan Iraq Somalia then? PAP fool.

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
  • Rabble-rouser:

    @ oxygen:
    Thanks, mate! Clear minds think alike & clarity of thought absolutely necessary to navigate in today’s tulmutuous conditions of vested politicians, fake news & media falsehoods, etc. And that CNBC article summarises it all!
    BTW I didn’t read that article before hand when I wrote. Andy Xie’s observations converged with my points except that I might have miscalculated the HK’s property rise ie. @ 400% vs 300%. But it is ironic that we both used 2003 as the base year!
    Prophetic to say the least!
    EXCERPTS from the CNBC article:
    KEY POINTS
    * Civil unrest in Hong Kong stems in part from stratospheric housing prices that have locked many residents out of the market, says independent economist Andy Xie.
    * Hong Kong property prices have risen over 300% since 2003.
    * Beijing needs to stop consulting with property “tycoons” and take away their political power, Xie says.

    oxygen: @ Rabble rouser

    EVEN DISTINGUISHED PROMINENT ECONOMIST agrees with you.

    Economist: Hong Kong’s tycoons ‘are the problem’ underlying recent unrest.

    https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/15/hong-kong-protests-economist-says-tycoons-are-the-problem.html

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
  • oxygen:

    @ Rabble-rouser

    YES, ANDY XIE’s writing was only few hours old when I caught it. Your observations were at least half a day old.

    Rabble-rouser: BTW I didn’t read that article before hand when I wrote. Andy Xie’s observations converged with my points except that I might have miscalculated the HK’s property rise ie. @ 400% vs 300%. But it is ironic that we both used 2003 as the base year!

    Your post comment immediately flashed vividly in my mind when I read that CNBC news read.

    MATE, YOU AND @ HAIGEN DIAZ ARE VERY SHARP ON CONTEXTUAL.

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
  • Rabble-rouser:

    @ Haigen-Diaz, oxygen:
    HK high property prices/unaffordability quotient of a powder keg situation meets the common peoples’ threshold limit for enduring pain.

    This finally came together over an Extradition piece of legislation (now repealed & forgotten) into an orgy of mass protestations & bugger-the-authorities response with an unrelenting & continuing agitation.

    Any missteps would send HK’s reputation as a Global financial centre into the Abyss along with HK’s sky high property prices. And that is the reason which is holding the Chinese Army back!

    And HK had served China’s politburo leaders well. The HK$ served as both an offshore bank currency & an alternative HKSE fund raising source (outside of RMB jurisdiction) for Mainland Chinese companies whom either couldn’t (not State-supported Industries) or didn’t (unknown Chinese companies) have the ability of accessing the Chinese banking & financial mechanism.

    The Chinese State banking mechanism were still struggling with State-owned Enterprises historical debts. HK served as a financial conduit for China’s hinterland financial needs & thus China could raise monies easily through HK, using HK$.

    After all, HK is an International Financial Centre while the HK$ is pegged to the US$ – a major attraction for foreign fund providers in terms of hedging their Forex risk (HK$ being a defacto proxy for US$). The Chinese Mainlanders over the last decade had actually arbitrage between their RMB savings, Accumulated Capital using HK insurance policies transacted in HK$. While the richer (Mainland Chinese) ones were those who bought high end HK properties & bidded them into the stratosphere.

    And recent HK govt land sales had been dominated by incoming Chinese developers & the Mainland Construction companies. The HK Oligarchs already controlled the bulk of HK’s landbanks. The cumulative result was that HK property prices went up by over 300% since 2003.
    - Cont’d -

    Haigen-Diaz: The ‘stability’ of Singapore has fueled speculation that if issues continue in Hong Kong, it would be the first to profit. Head hunters, public relations companies and estate brokers claim there are no indications of a Hong Kong exodus, although it may take months for companies to schedule a relocation. At the very least, industry officials say, firms are contemplating contingencies should the worst-case scenario — armed intervention — arise in Hong Kong.

    Well, Sometimes clean and polite can morph into sterile and cold. Much the same way that seamy and crass can become exciting and intriguing.

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
  • Rabble-rouser:

    - Cont’d -
    HK, in truth, is an Oligarch-controlled economy with the HK politicians – compliant & subservient to their needs.

    The Chinese politburo operates a symbiotic relationship with the HK oligarchs because they require the Oligarchs’ expertise in capitalism while the Mainland communist leaders navigate the complexities of a capitalist system with their help.

    The payback Beijing gave to the HK Oligarchs were a free rein over the HK economy. Now, it had backfired on the HK Oligarchs & gave the China’s Politburo a headache.

    S’pore, on the other hand, is a Political-dominant economy with their domestic economy players – compliant & subservient to the political elites.

    And S’pore’s biggest weakness (unlike HK) is the lack of a hinterland. And S’pore hollowed out after 2000s because the PAP just couldn’t developed this hinterland (eg. Suzhou, SIJORI, Tianjin, Vietnam, New capital city Amaravati in Andhra Pradesh, etc).

    S’pore’s best bet was when the SIJORI conceptual plan was announced on 20 December 1989 which was to developed this hinterland to fruition.

    Narratives like “Bintan and Batam … become manufacturing bases for multi-national corporations from countries such as the US, the Netherlands, Taiwan, Japan, Panama, Australia and the Bahamas, as well as Singapore firms looking to reduce costs” & “growth triangle links the logistics, transportation and financial facilities of Singapore with the natural and labour resources of Johor and Riau”. But it came to bought!

    PAP’s greed for govt revenues were just too good to give up, hence S’pore didn’t pursue SIJORI hinterland concept with their full vigor.

    S’pore’s Offshore & Marine sector could have easily migrated to Batam or Bintang islands but didn’t. S’pore could have created an industrialised zone inside Johor rivalling Selangor but didn’t.

    The difference between HK Oligarchs & S’pore Political Elites were the former were brilliant businessmen but lack human emotion, social responsibility & human empathy for their masses; whereas the latter were simply atrocious ie. lousy business builders, poor asset traders & awful strategic players yet rewarded themselves with generous taxpayers monies.

    And silly people think that HK’gers would be ready to put their monies here in S’pore as if they had no other choice.

    But S’pore is too over-regulated, too boring & too stifling; the S’pore economy is rife with failures everywhere. Unlike in HK, HK’gers can morph between HK & China easily as part of their greater hinterland.
    - Cont’d -

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
  • Rabble-rouser:

    - Cont’d -
    The local MSM narratives, the real estate industry buzz of HK rich crowd relocation & wealth diversion giving rise to recent Euphoric crowds at new property launches.

    These people hoping to front-book units to “profit” from coming HK exodus are simply hilarious. To them, one plus one equals five! Ha-ha-ha-ha! Ready to jump off a cliff without even looking!

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
  • Haigen-Diaz:

    @ Rabble-rouser, oxygen

    In a series of tweets, abandoning his hawkish rhetoric of trade, Trump expanded an olive branch to Chinese President Xi Jinping, calling him a “excellent leader” and a “excellent person. He ended his posts with “Personal meeting?,” Trump also addressed the HK problem when proposing a meeting.

    I guess Pres Trump over-estimated himself and under-estimated China. Instead of the “Art of the Deal” he should also read Sun Tzu’s ” Ärt of War.” Having said that, there is no victory in this trade war, China and the rest of the world have already suffered for a year now since this trade war started. The issue is how Xi is going to react to the overture of Trump.

    Who is more desperate at the moment for a trade agreement? It’s said that the party least interested in a relationship, whether personal or business, is the one who controls the terms and conditions of the arrangement. Given recent events that ‘party’ in the trade battle appears to be China.

    China also understand Trump’s hot button and weakness is the need to keep equity market values elevated and any correction or crash in the markets will hurt him and his chances for re-election. Constant boasting and taking credit about how “his” policies have led to the markets rising leaves him vulnerable to receiving blame for any drop. Expect the rhetoric and attacks on Powell and the Fed to intensify as the attempts to deflect blame ramp up…

    Hopefully, come September the US will be more realistic and willing to accept China as an equal partner and reach a “win win” deal for both countries for the good of the world. On the surface it appears that Trump has overplayed his hand here and severely underestimated China’s (and Xi’s) resolve to hold to their position.

    It’s not clear to me if the intended audience of the tariff delay was the domestic consumer or the Chinese leadership but it comes off as desperation rather than a gesture of good will. It also provides evidence the President understands the consumer bears the cost of the tariffs and not the Chinese and reveals his previous statements to the contrary as less than honest.

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
  • Haigen-Diaz:

    Rabble-rouser: This finally came together over an Extradition piece of legislation (now repealed & forgotten) into an orgy of mass protestations & bugger-the-authorities response with an unrelenting & continuing agitation.

    Any missteps would send HK’s reputation as a Global financial centre into the Abyss along with HK’s sky high property prices. And that is the reason which is holding the Chinese Army back!

    @ Rabble-rouser, oxygen

    Mr. Xi’s almost seven years in office were characterized by a constant tightening of his grip on power and a tough position against any concessions to democratic requirements. Shortly after his ascension to authority in 2012, he released what became known as the “seven unmentionable,” a list of values that the Communist Party would be fighting against. They include “Western constitutional democracy,” human rights, press independence, civil involvement, pro-market liberalism, and “nihilistic” criticism of the past of the party.

    These unmentionable values are generally the values cherished by millions of Hong Kongers, making their enclave a direct challenge to Mr. Xi’s ideology and his scripted narrative that the rise of China is a phenomenon in which democracy and the rule of law are specious Western ideas irrelevant to China, and dissidents are a small minority manipulated by foreigners.

    Now that a tactical retreat has not worked, the Chinese government has some tough calls to make. If Beijing were to send the People’s Liberation Army out into Hong Kong’s streets to “stabilize the situation” (which it suggested last week it could do) that would have “a big negative impact” on markets.

    On the other end, Chinese officials could offer “true concessions” and enable complete democracy to Hong Kongers — the right to an unrestricted vote for their own legislature and leader — which is what many protesters demand, then it is conceivable that Beijing, Shanghai and other mainland cities will ask for the same thing.

    Mr. Xi has been largely silent, and however painful he may find it, it is in his best interests to offer the demonstrators their win. Under the 1984 Sino-British Joint Declaration, Hong Kong will maintain its way of life and liberties until 2047. And if the continuing protests have made anything clear, it is that Hong Kongers will resist any efforts to move up the clock.

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
  • Rabble-rouser:

    @ Haigen-Diaz, oxygen:
    Trump playing to the US voters’ gallery for his 2020 re-election bid, Bro! His actions showed as much!
    His jawboning for rate cuts came too little, too late. The US dropped 800 points on Wednesday trade on the Bond Inverted Yield Curve signalling that a recession is looming. The US downturn is inevitable.

    The postponing of tariffs on Chinese goods & his request for another dialogue with Xi Kingpin (leading to restarting of trade talks) sounds like a desperate move of a desperate person! Coming so soon after a brutal Stockmarket crash sound like a plunge protection move. In that, you’re right about Trump’s lack of integrity about resolving the trade dispute!

    But his domestic immigration policies remained firmly anti-immigrant bias. There have been increasing raids by ICE (Immigration & Custom Enforcement) officers on various food processing plants in Mississippi. Undocumented workers had been detained & processed. Many would be deported! Again, he is playing to the US rednecks, the minority hate groups & the White Supremacists movements (the extreme Far Right).

    You would question his motives about his “Making America Great Again” Statement. The US White folks aren’t interested in factory work having grown up on higher expectations & generous privileges during a past Middle-class prosperity era. And you can’t turn back the clock as the US would need a hardworking labour force to kick-start another Industrial phrase. But Trump can’t do it with the present day spoilt White kids only interested in social media & taking selfies re: snowflakes!

    When you put 2 & 2 together, Trump seems reprising his “The Apprentice” reality show format in his Presidential boardroom “You’re Fired!” & replicating his foreign policy based on the way he conducts his property & hotel development business eg. incoherent & unscrupulous.

    In reality, he defaulted on his banks loans without being made personally bankrupt & his suppliers, contractors had been shortchanged by Trump’s companies over the years. Man tend to repeat history!

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
  • oxygen:

    @ Haigen Diaz & Rabble rouser

    HERE IS THE ANSWER TO YOUR RIDDLE below.

    Haigen-Diaz: I guess Pres Trump over-estimated himself and under-estimated China. Instead of the “Art of the Deal” he should also read Sun Tzu’s ” Ärt of War.” Having said that, there is no victory in this trade war, China and the rest of the world have already suffered for a year now since this trade war started. The issue is how Xi is going to react to the overture of Trump.

    Trump officials see no Chinese concessions for tariff delays amid market rout

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trade-china/trump-officials-see-no-chinese-concessions-for-tariff-delays-amid-market-rout-idUSKCN1V419S

    US TRADE NEGOTIATORS ARE CLUELESS – that Shanghai meeting – away from Beijing signals no political endorsement from Xi that it is worth a serious discourse. The meeting hall in that hotel displayed Chinese caligraphy depicting mountain and cloud according to one of my source. China is mountain (immovable and intransigent), the US is high, mighty, arrogant passing cloud. The hidden message was this – if the cloud brings rainfall to water and flourish the luxuriant growth of grass and trees on the mountain slope, we can talk and connect to mutual benefit. If not, the cloud is just passing by, OUR MOUNTAIN IS STILL THERE, NOTHING TO NEGOTIATE.

    I LAUGHED HEARING THIS.

    Haigen-Diaz: It’s not clear to me if the intended audience of the tariff delay was the domestic consumer or the Chinese leadership but it comes off as desperation rather than a gesture of good will. It also provides evidence the President understands the consumer bears the cost of the tariffs and not the Chinese and reveals his previous statements to the contrary as less than honest.

    Yes there is a hint of that from Wilbur Ross, US consumers are paying for the tariff.

    WE’RE NOT ABLE TO PLAY THIS VIDEO IF AN AD BLOCKER IS ENABLED.

    Please disable your ad blocker on CNBC and reload the page to start the video.

    Wilbur Ross: Tariff delay is not a concession—it’s meant to help US…

    https://www.cnbc.com/video/2019/08/14/us-china-trade-tariffs-wilbur-ross-american-consumer-squawk-box.html

    And of course, the RUBBER-TAPPERS, DURIAN PICKERS AND 50C PER POST TROLLERS FROM BOHLEHLAND COULD NOT FIGURE ALL THESE OUT.

    They even claims without substantiation or any basis that 1 ringgit will soon be worth 3 SINGAPORE$.

    HILARIOUS.

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
  • Left to australia:

    Rabble-rouser:
    @ Left to Australia:
    PAP.GUARANTEE.WIN.GE2019/20 made the selective comparison, mate! Not me!
    I just shut him up over his ridiculous comments hoping that he would go back to M’sia to resume his rubber tapping (oxygen) or durian picking (mine). His level of intelligence possibly had to do with the hazards of durian picking! His head probably got hit by a falling durian a while back! Needed to earn 50 cents a post while recuperating from his durian inflicted injury.

    As for Afghanistan Iraq Somalia – they all have equal income & wealth equality there which is basically “all zeroes & poor” to start with.

    they are poor because of the war conducted on them by the USA..and when I ask u why bring in HK u done the question by saying Afghanistan Somalia are poor therefore they don’t have an income gap. Income gap is more common in countries like Singapore and southeast Asia because of western imperialism

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
  • oxygen:

    @ Rabble-rouser, Haigen Diaz

    SPOT ON, MATE – less than 24 hrs after Powell cut only 25 basis point on FFR and called it a “mid-cycle adjustment only, not a Fed policy change direction toward ZIRP), an agitated Trump played with fire – KILL THE CHINESE CHICKEN TO LET THE POWELL MONKEY WATCH. This idiot boy tweeted 10% tariff on balance of Chinese imports CONTRARY TO HIS OSAKA AGREEMENT WITH XI to walk back from the brink.

    Idiot boy hold China to hostage to blackmail Powell to cut interest rate by tariff route to wreck global economy.

    Rabble-rouser: @ Haigen-Diaz, oxygen:
    Trump playing to the US voters’ gallery for his 2020 re-election bid, Bro! His actions showed as much!

    THAT BACKFIRED. Higher prices feed into inflation for US consumers, cutting consumer spending which account for 70% of US GDP.

    This betrayed his lies.

    Haigen-Diaz: It also provides evidence the President understands the consumer bears the cost of the tariffs and not the Chinese and reveals his previous statements to the contrary as less than honest.

    HE BLINKED, and then

    Trump called the CEOs of the biggest US banks on Wednesday as the stock market plunged

    https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/16/trump-reportedly-held-call-with-major-bank-ceos-on-wednesday-as-the-stock-market-plunged.html

    HIS STUPID BACKSIDE IS NOW EXPOSED along with his re-election chances if global economy teeters over the cliff which it might looking at the economics statistic coming out of Germany and falling US PMI manufacturing figures.

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
  • Haigen-Diaz:

    @ oxygen, Rabble-rouser

    The bond market is stating that Trumponomics was a flop, which is the best measure we have. An “inverted yield curve” — when short-term bond interest rates are higher than long-term bonds. And a plunge in long-term yields, now less than half of what they were last fall, has once again reversed the yield curve, with the short-to-long spread to roughly where it was at the beginning of 2007, on the eve of a disastrous financial crisis.

    While the Fed is lately being criticized for raising rates, the fact is that interest rates are well below historical averages (or norms) and have been since the 2007-08 crisis/crash. In the intervening ten or so years these low interest rates have artificially raised the value of assets of all kinds, in effect stuffing even more money into the coffers of the very wealthy. As an example, the value of income properties moves the opposite direction of rates, value being the inverse of income to cap rate. The same occurs with home prices, where low rates drive lower borrowing costs and make it possible to pay more, and many other kinds of assets.

    The Federal Reserve controls short-term rates, but not long-term rates; low long-term returns imply investors expect a fragile economy, forcing the Fed into repeated rate reductions.

    The tax cut has given the economy a boost— a “sugar high.” That’s going to be done by running trillion dollar deficits. But temporary was the boost. The promised boom in business investment has never materialized in specific. And now, at best, the economy has returned to its growth pace pre-stimulus.

    A sure sign that China has the upper hand in Trump’s Economic War Against the World is Trump playing coy with escalating Hong Kong unrest.

    Ordinarily a tough negotiator would see Hong Kong as an opportunity to put extra pressure on China for a trade deal. But like North Korea, Trump is too desperate for a “win” to risk any provocation that might cause Xi or Kim to nuke any deal.

    The message Trump is sending about HK is that he doesn’t care if China is authoritarian, repressive, tyrannical, or corrupt — in fact Trump admires all these qualities, specially the corrupt tyrant part. Also, Trump hates mobs because they’re usually against him. But he loves how powerful tyrants can crush mobs with impunity. Guess which side he’s on?

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
  • Rabble-rouser:

    @ Left to australia:
    Income gaps are inevitable in any successful economic mechanism. And that is the price of Capitalism (Market Economy) in it’s purest form! Capitalism, democracy have their own pitfalls [endgames]. There are no perfect economic systems in the world that can address this [growing] income gap issue. We would be naive to think that we do!

    Karl Marx argued against Capitalism & from his doctrine, formulated both a hardcore Communism & a milder form, Socialism as his ideological solution against Capitalism (& wealth disparity). But the communist ideology failed towards the end of the cold war (outright market failures) while socialism tried to create an egalitarian society through wealth transfer schemes. But socialism ended up costing too much (both in tax payer’s monies & accumulated future debts) to implement re: Scandinavia’s social welfare experiment; UK Brexit moment, US homeless problem, govt & student debts, etc. There’s simply no free lunch left! Life is simply going to get harder!

    And the (widening) income gaps that are happening now were because the Global Economy is well past maturity phase (in both economic & demographic declines); while population in 3rd world nations are still growing (but poor…Afghanistan Iraq Somalia). And because Manufacturing as an economic activity is a critical creator for jobs. Yet there were excessive global production overcapacity (limited demand due to demographic imbalances) which hampers job creation. It will only get worse with technology which reduces labour content!

    Western imperialism were just like the Rothschild’s perceived control of the Global Banking mechanism – a Conspiracy Theory & simplistic view! You need to see beyond tags (Imperialism, Illuminati) & understand the cause-&-effect processes of why things happen for a reason!

    In North Asia, it were the Japan (Kereitsu), South Korea (Chaebols), Taiwan (Big Corporations) & PRC (Big successful corporations) that formed the backbone of their economy. In places like M’sia, Indonesia, Thailand, the Philippines, it’s the overseas Chinese families who controlled their economy, not western imperialism (as a cause for their income gap)!

    Left to australia: Income gap is more common in countries like Singapore and southeast Asia because of western imperialism

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
  • Rabble-rouser:

    @ Haigen-Diaz:
    I recalled 3-4 months back, Temasek Holdings & a VenCap subsidiary approached Ma & Pa retail investors (which included institutional investors, to be fair) for what, I think, were 5-year borrowing papers at an attractive yield (compared to bank fixed deposit rates). Then SIA followed suit with a borrowing issue of their own with a slightly tasty yield (than FD rates).

    The investors’ reception to the borrowing papers were overwhelming much like the recent uptake in new property launches. Crowds (herds) can be highly irrational, emotional & full of misplaced optimism.

    Called me Cynical, Skeptical or an eternal Pessimist but I think it will not end well for those “greedy, hungry for yield” investors. Temasek’s investing record isn’t giving me high confidence. Plus we’re into an uncertain global economic situation with a highly irrational leader of the workd’s biggest economy at the helm.

    Haigen-Diaz: An “inverted yield curve” — when short-term bond interest rates are higher than long-term bonds. And a plunge in long-term yields, now less than half of what they were last fall, has once again reversed the yield curve, with the short-to-long spread to roughly where it was at the beginning of 2007, on the eve of a disastrous financial crisis.

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
  • oxygen:

    @ Haigen-Diaz, Rabble rouser

    MATE, THE BOND MARKET IS NERVOUS no matter how sanguine some parts of political economy about the state of the US and global economy.

    Haigen-Diaz: The bond market is stating that Trumponomics was a flop, which is the best measure we have. An “inverted yield curve” — when short-term bond interest rates are higher than long-term bonds.

    You are right about this

    Haigen-Diaz: The Federal Reserve controls short-term rates, but not long-term rates; low long-term returns imply investors expect a fragile economy, forcing the Fed into repeated rate reductions.

    I trust the bond market, not equities when in doubt. It is institutional-based big boys game. Trumponomics set the stage of political drama and Powell playing correctional catch-up – behind the curve. But the bond market gives no respect to Trump, it supply its own judgment.

    If economy is good, how come widespread negative and falling interest rate? The bulls are silent on this as they are blind of the fact that Trumponomic’s fiscal stimulus came right on the heel of a decade of cheap monetary stimulus – it is taking poison to remove economic toxicity.

    I am watching with bewilderment these happenings -

    The U.S. Treasury is about to flood the market with debt to fund a $1 trillion deficit. Here’s why that is a worry

    https://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-us-treasury-is-about-to-flood-the-market-with-debt-to-fund-a-1-trillion-deficit-heres-why-that-is-a-worry-2019-08-15?mod=mw_theo_homepage

    And what is China doing? It has slowed down purchase of US Treasury leaving deflation riddled economy/BOJ to be the last supporting pillar of US deficit funding pressures.

    Japan surpasses China as largest foreign holder of US Treasurys

    https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/15/japan-surpasses-china-as-largest-foreign-holder-of-us-treasurys.html

    Market talks has this Chinese “nuclear option”.

    China Prepares Its “Nuclear Option” In Trade War

    :If there is any further pushback from the U.S. on any of these Chinese projects in Iran, then Beijing will invoke in full force the ‘nuclear option’ of selling all or a significant part of its US$1.4 trillion holding of U.S. Treasury Bills, with a major chunk of the paper due to be sold in September on this basis

    https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/China-Prepares-Its-Nuclear-Option-In-Trade-War.html#

    WORRYING.

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
  • chicken talk:

    Can’t find much substance from these boastful narratives.
    So much empty talks going in circles.
    People messaging each other’s ego…

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
  • oxygen:

    @ Haigen-Diaz

    Compounding the Fed’s dilemma is the knowledge that US economy is running on fumes needing more and more energy boost from debt binge of decreasing productivity.

    US must accumulate more & more debt in order to keep economy from collapsing – RT’s Keiser Report.

    https://www.rt.com/business/466559-us-economy-debt-collapse/

    RT.com:The analogy is similar to what is now happening in the US…. There’s an ever increasing quantity of debt required to keep GDP in the same place. So the Fed must print, print, print to keep the economy from collapsing.h

    US budget deficit is running faster than its GDP growth i.e. borrowing from every sources to spend on beautifying its GDP growth statistics and in that journey of economic glorification/aggrandisation to futility, the exhaustion collapse must come sooner and sooner even though nobody knows exactly when of moment of sudden death collapse.

    Lower and lower, worst still negative interest rate environment is spawning a whole cultivation of zombie technology business outside the FAANG. Take a good look at the last qtrly results of Uber Technologies just announced.

    https://investor.uber.com/news-events/news/press-release-details/2019/Uber-Reports-Second-Quarter-2019-Results/default.aspx

    Revenue was 3.166 bln, reported loss was $5.485 bln, the cash burnt continues post IPO listing. When interest rate normalise (higher if economy rebound), they might not survive. But if economy sours further as credit market tightens of bank lending (which bank wants to lend losing money and worry about non-repayment of principal???), revenue cannot cover operating costs and market development expenses, MY SUSPICION IS THAT A LOT OF HIGH TECH DIGITAL STOCKS AND BUSINESS WILL GO BUST – just like this U-tube presentation warns.

    https://youtu.be/RZV6DnuqY40

    Our tertiary grads without jobs living on GIG economy of food delivery and grab driving will be thrown out of work (when tech sector collapses like a pack of playing cards) AND IN THAT TRAGEDY TRAPPED WITH NO MARKETABLE EMPLOYABLE SKILLS TO FIND SURVIVAL BREAD FOR TOMORROW.

    Lower interest costs is NOT THE SOLUTION to slowing economy. IF IT DOES, HOW COME EU HAVE NOT RECOVERED IN AN ENVIRONMENT OF NEGATIVE INTEREST RATE ALONG WITH JAPAN? Trumponomics trade war with China simply adds to the woes and weight distress of recovery hopes.

    The next downturn, I suspect, will be deeper and the struggle much more longer of even SHALLOW recovery prospect.

    Cave-men and cave-women in Lee-jiapore better fcuking wake up for your own good.

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
  • Haigen-Diaz:

    chicken talk:
    Can’t find much substance from these boastful narratives.
    So much empty talks going in circles.
    People messaging each other’s ego…

    O silly man. Your arguments would have more weight if you provided even a smidgen of evidence for your claims.

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
  • oxygen:

    @ chicken talk

    I SAW A CHICKEN HERE OBVIOUSLY CAN’T SPELL MASSAGE PROPERLY. Spend too much time working in a duck’s d*ck massage outlet?

    HILARIOUS!

    chicken talk: Can’t find much substance from these boastful narratives.
    So much empty talks going in circles.
    People messaging each other’s ego…

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
  • Rabble-rouser:

    @ Haigen-Diaz, oxygen:
    Don’t blame the poor man for his ignorance! If PAP, Tharman & Heng Sweet Keat had provided the people with their economics viewpoints & intellectual discourse in Parliament, interaction through the media & internet; invariably they would have educated their broader audience with economic theory & sophistication, & this would not have happened. But the people have gotten loads of BS instead!

    And this is the PAP’s fault for creating a “Mushroom” eco-system under the cover of darkness leaving mushrooms to feed off fecal matter. Maybe this is the very reason (Political dominance), but S’pore’s eco-system isn’t that promising if one thinks of the Knowledge Economy ahead! Even worse is the 4G dabbling with Mushroom politics which can’t be good for S’pore! “Monopoly over knowledge & wisdom”

    The S’pore property market was a good example of the inherent myths, speculative reasoning & fantasy thinking that shrouds this market inspite of hard data backing our arguments. And our mate, oxygen knows how terrible is this eco-system of perma-property bulls & silly fools who would argue & argue.

    And that is why “boastful narratives, empty talks going in circles & messaging *sic* each other’s ego” is their only response. Ah! Ignorance is bliss! Not knowing can’t hurt you until the $h*t hits the fan!

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
  • chicken talk:

    You can correct my poor english in a more gracious way.
    No need of such arrogance.
    I studied until sec 3 only.
    But before i retired,I managed to become VP,Operations of commercial bank.

    I am proud of my humble achievement.
    I know it is nothing much but to me,it is really hard work and humility.

    No need to act arrogant if you think the PAP people are arrogant, you are the same,oxygen.

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
  • Haigen-Diaz:

    Rabble-rouser: @ Haigen-Diaz:
    I recalled 3-4 months back, Temasek Holdings & a VenCap subsidiary approached Ma & Pa retail investors (which included institutional investors, to be fair) for what, I think, were 5-year borrowing papers at an attractive yield (compared to bank fixed deposit rates).

    @ Rabble-rouser, oxygen

    For frequent Singaporean investors like us, Astrea IV bonds became accessible in June 2018. Back then, this was a fairly large deal because there were very few ways to invest in bonds other than purchasing Singapore Savings Bonds before Astrea IV.

    Now the Astrea V’s issuer is a Temasek Holdings’ subsidiary (Astrea V Pte Ltd) rather than Temasek Holdings. That makes a great deal of difference. This is a product without any guarantee, which is obviously indicated on the prospectus first page.

    I remember when individuals last purchased the Hyflux bond, many erroneously thought that Temasek had skin in the game as well.

    Astrea V bonds deliver a substantially reduced annual return of 3.85 percent p.a., which is not really as profitable as 4.35 percent of Astrea IV. Both bonds are similarly structured in that after 5 years the bond matures, after which you can choose to redeem the bond and get back your capital. At this stage, you may even get a “performance bonus” of 0.5 percent of your investment if the bond has done well enough.

    But if the funds are doing badly and there are cash flow issues, at this stage you may not be able to get back your principal. If this is the case, the interest will increase by 1 percent after year 5 (in the case of Astrea V bonds, to 4.85 percent p.a.) until the final maturity date, 10 years from now. That said, both interest payouts and the main investment are not guaranteed.

    There’s a chance one can lose it all, so I hope those ‘mom & pop’ don’t put their life savings into this – I’m very doubtful that anyone from Temasek Holdings, Azalea Management, or Ho Ching will pay back retail investors out of their pocket if Astrea V faces a Hyflux scenario.

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
  • Rabble-rouser:

    @ chicken talk:
    Mate! Don’t be angry. Pardon the perceived “arrogance” because we’re too used to attacks from PAP IBs here – thus responded accordingly! You shoot, we shoot back! Sorry if we didn’t see you as a friendly! BTW, I recommend you change your moniker “chicken talk” to something better sounding maybe like “retired banker” to accord you proper respects!
    Your achievements are noted & we’re not downplaying your contribution to S’pore. Us guys here are all true S’poreans (I think!) & like Tan Cheng Bock, who thinks that S’pore under the cirrent PAP has lost it’s way! If there’s anything that we may help to bring you up to speed, just write & ask “Please explain”. Poor english is no barrier as long as your heart in the right place! We all care for S’pore but the politics is screwed up! No different as what is happening in HK except S’poreans are kept inside a fear compartment keeping us docile unlike HK’gers!

    chicken talk:
    You can correct my poor english in a more gracious way.
    No need of such arrogance.
    I studied until sec 3 only.
    But before i retired,I managed to become VP,Operations of commercial bank.

    I am proud of my humble achievement.
    I know it is nothing much but to me,it is really hard work and humility.

    No need to act arrogant if you think the PAP people are arrogant, you are the same,oxygen.

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
  • oxygen:

    @ Chicken talk

    BABY SHOULD NOT CRY after spilling milk, least of all for a former banker when the subject-matter is economics and financial market.

    I am enjoying an intensely informing discourse with other deep intellectual minds – those who can shake my mind thoughts with provoking perspective and come a “chicken” rudely interrupting with nothing constructive or interogative of contributory thoughts to offer.

    IN ONE WORD – RUDE and therefore deserving of the SAME COURTESY to shut down this ARROGANT intrusion – so that the informing discourse shared can continue.

    chicken talk: You can correct my poor english in a more gracious way.
    No need of such arrogance.
    I studied until sec 3 only.
    But before i retired,I managed to become VP,Operations of commercial bank.

    I am proud of my humble achievement.
    I know it is nothing much but to me,it is really hard work and humility.

    No need to act arrogant if you think the PAP people are arrogant, you are the same,oxygen.

    Here is one angle from Haigen-Diaz YESTERDAY which got my adrenaline flowing today.

    Haigen-Diaz: The Federal Reserve controls short-term rates, but not long-term rates; low long-term returns imply investors expect a fragile economy, forcing the Fed into repeated rate reductions

    This perspective is true and not obvious to many including myself. Economists can add another varied perspective.

    Stock-market investors rattled by rising bond yields can blame the Fed, according to this chart

    https://www.marketwatch.com/story/rising-bond-yields-are-all-about-the-end-of-qe-according-to-this-chart-2018-10-10?mod=mw_theo_homepage&mod=mw_theo_homepage

    The contentions found in today’s Marketwatch.com read has these varied thoughts. While the Fed controls the short-term bond yields and NO DIRECT HANDLE on long-term rates – its prolonged QE left too much “stock” of liquidity depressing bond yields DESPITE FED’s 2017/2018 quantitative tightening. There is further possibility of the “signaling effect” of short-term tightening on long-term yields (as economy needs expanding liquidity as it grows forward).

    With Sec. 3 education, this stuff is beyond your VP operations banking experience.

    DON’T SHUT DOWN DISCOURSE BECAUSE YOU ARE IGNORANT AND ARROGANT.

    I HAVE PROFOUND RESPECT FOR SOME INVIGORATING MINDS in TRE forums, they teach me something of life-long learning and deserving of my humble respect.

    If U live in glass houses, PLEASE CHANGE YOUR UNDIES IN THE BASEMENT. TK!!

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
  • oxygen:

    @ Rabble-rouser& @ Haigen-Diaz

    I GAVE @ Chicken my FULL AND FRANK thoughts above.

    Rabble-rouser: @ Haigen-Diaz, oxygen:
    Don’t blame the poor man for his ignorance!

    If the former VP of banking operations, he/she must know this is gutter nonsense.

    chicken talk: Can’t find much substance from these boastful narratives.
    So much empty talks going in circles.
    People messaging each other’s ego…

    The least he/she could have done is to debate vigorously any point of contentions raised in this thread he/she disagree with BUT INSTEAD CHOSEN TO BUCKET ONE BUT ALL in AD HOMINEM ATTACK.

    Doubt he will come back to ENGAGED VIGOROUSLY ON MACRO-ECONOMICS AND FINANCIAL MARKET BEHAVIOR drawing on his past banking experience to show us HIS SUBSTANCE OR VOID EMPTINESS.

    Fair go, mate.

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
  • oxygen:

    @ Haigen-Diaz & @ Rabble-rouser

    YES, BONDS ARE, like I said, is institutional play mainly unless one plays through ETFs or managed bond funds.

    oxygen: I trust the bond market, not equities when in doubt. It is institutional-based big boys game

    YES, GLOBALLY, BOND MARKET IN AGGREGATE IS MUCH LARGER THAN EQUITIES but in smaller capital markets like Lee-jiapore, retail investors has little or no choice if they want to invest in “safe” bonds with lower volatility than equities and commodities.

    Haigen-Diaz: @ Rabble-rouser, oxygen

    For frequent Singaporean investors like us, Astrea IV bonds became accessible in June 2018. Back then, this was a fairly large deal because there were very few ways to invest in bonds other than purchasing Singapore Savings Bonds before Astrea IV.

    Personally, I have never cultivate a curiosity or interests in bond investing because in my mind – it is delusion of reality i.e. a DEBT INSTRUMENT.

    The issuer of debt securities float a bond (offering higher yields than equities) because “cheaper” sources of equities funding is either unavailable or even more prohibitive of dilution. In fact, it is even more dangerous if it is unsecured or secured on dubious assets of the issuer.

    I bought and owned St. Barbara Mines shares Down Under (GUARANTEED NO DIVIDEND YIELD AS THE GOLD MINER WAS GOING THROUGH HARD TIMES THEN) when it also offer a bond issue on SGX paying high yields. That bond issue would have no buyer in Australia.

    A lot of retail investors like to chase “high yield” bonds (relative to bank deposits rate) – they are exposed to unseen risks – in a low interest rate environment. The yields are high because the issuer/owners of such bond sold their investment opportunity at a deep discount. Bond yields vary inversely with bond price as you know.

    The higher the yields, the STEEPER IS THE ESCALATION TO SUDDEN DEATH COLLAPSE of the issuer. Investors of such bonds get high yields for a few quarters and then suddenly their invested capital evaporates to nothing.

    Plenty of zombies entities that can’t even meet BBB-ve ratings will offer exceptional yields to trap unsuspecting investors – financial institutions and high net worth investors won’t touch them with a pole a mile long.

    I WILL NEVER BUY BONDS as a matter of personal choice.

    BUT GOOD LUCK WITH YOUR INVESTING INTEREST IN BOND – NOT ALL ARE BAD.

    Me, a gambler thrill-seeker in the commodities space.

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
  • Rabble-rouser:

    @ Haigen-Diaz, oxygen:
    Mate! Many thanks for your comprehensive details for this salacious paper offering from Temasek’s myriad of investment vehicles with tenuous links to the Temasek behemoth.

    From the Website:
    [Important Notice: Risks Associated with Investing in Astrea V PE Bonds
    Bondholders may lose all or part of their investments arising from default, interest rate, liquidity, inflation risks and risks specific to private equity investments such as investment, market and leverage risks.]

    On analyses, this isn’t even a Plain Vanilla Corporate Bond where the Corporate Entity pledges it’s cash flow to pay both the coupon payments as well as the principle amount upon bond maturity. (Under Traditional Bond covenants)

    There are no bond ratings nor any credit assessment on the entity behind this borrowing paper. Any linkage to Temasek Holdings are merely coincidental without any guarantees specifically stated. (Very High Risk as what’s behind their illiquid state of PE Investments & considering that the exit routes of IPO market are relatively dead at this moment re: NASDAQ, HKSE). Oh my gawd!

    Man, this isn’t even a real bond issue (with bond covenants, corporate guarantees or security status ie. senior, junior, nor with bond ratings attached for safety). It is but a hybrid borrowing paper without any security, corporate gurantee or collateral, assets attached to it. What a bummer for the investor!

    This is a Goldman Sachs type Investment of “Rip Yer Face Off” instrument of mass credit destruction. Caveat Emptor!
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.fool.com/amp/investing/general/2010/04/19/goldman-sachs-and-the-art-of-ripping-your-clients-.aspx

    And Ma-&-Pa yield hungry investors can only see the “high” return (vs FD returns) without comprehending the significantly high risk PE Investments behind the “small print” & label warnings! Duh, Duh, Duh – Another one bites the dust?

    Haigen-Diaz: Both bonds are similarly structured in that after 5 years the bond matures, after which you can choose to redeem the bond and get back your capital. At this stage, you may even get a “performance bonus” of 0.5 percent of your investment if the bond has done well enough.

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
  • Haigen-Diaz:

    chicken talk:
    You can correct my poor english in a more gracious way.
    No need of such arrogance.
    I studied until sec 3 only.
    But before i retired,I managed to become VP,Operations of commercial bank.

    I am proud of my humble achievement.
    I know it is nothing much but to me,it is really hard work and humility.

    No need to act arrogant if you think the PAP people are arrogant….

    So VP,Operations of commercial bank. What you called your comments below? Humility, arrogance or stupidity like above?

    chicken talk:
    Can’t find much substance from these boastful narratives.
    So much empty talks going in circles.
    People messaging each other’s ego…

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
  • oxygen:

    @ Haigen-Diaz & @ Rabble-rouser

    NOW GOING TO HISTORICAL TRACK RECORDS of St Barbara Mines in 2007, I am shocked to discover that it offered 8% yield with the sweetener of convertibility to the mother shares.

    oxygen: I bought and owned St. Barbara Mines shares Down Under (GUARANTEED NO DIVIDEND YIELD AS THE GOLD MINER WAS GOING THROUGH HARD TIMES THEN) when it also offer a bond issue on SGX paying high yields. That bond issue would have no buyer in Australia.

    Now go to page 1 of this weblink titled – SUMMARY OF OFFERING at page 1 of the 115-page offer document – which was on offer only on SGX only in 2007.

    https://www.asx.com.au/asxpdf/20070531/pdf/312qdpzq1fgdxx.pdf

    It reads A$100 million 8% convertible notes due 2012.

    FOR THOSE DARING INVESTORS IN SINGAPORE THEN, THEY MAKE A BOMB – literally.

    The conversion price was A$0.73c per share.

    https://www.asx.com.au/asxpdf/20070604/pdf/312sdqslk7k970.pdf

    St Barbara share price now is roughly – A$3.67 – that represents a 500% returns on conversion price ON TOP OF THE 8% YIELD EARLIER AND SUBSEQUENT GENEROUS DIVIDEND SINCE CONVERSION YEAR OF 2012 (A CLASSIC TURNAROUND OF A MINING STOCK from its near death which is why I bought and owns its mother share in Australia ).

    I MISSED OUT ON A GOODIE.

    So @ Haigen Diaz, there is rare gems of bond issues to be had!! It is just I am not interested in bonds – a debt instrument.

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
  • Haigen-Diaz:

    oxygen: The least he/she could have done is to debate vigorously any point of contentions raised in this thread he/she disagree with BUT INSTEAD CHOSEN TO BUCKET ONE BUT ALL in AD HOMINEM ATTACK.

    Doubt he will come back to ENGAGED VIGOROUSLY ON MACRO-ECONOMICS AND FINANCIAL MARKET BEHAVIOR drawing on his past banking experience to show us HIS SUBSTANCE OR VOID EMPTINESS.

    @ oxygen & Rabble-rouser

    No respect for @chicken talk or his comments and this got nothing to do with a sec. 3 education. In fact ALL are welcomed to disagree but please state your reasons and not by starting with a lame duck nick like “chicken talk” to belittle the recipients before a conversation can even take place. This guy is the antonym of Tan Kin Lian who ‘mum up’ or ‘cowed in silence’ through articulate and reasonable questionings by readers. That’s the hall-mark of true arrogance.

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
  • Haigen-Diaz:

    oxygen: Here is one angle from Haigen-Diaz YESTERDAY which got my adrenaline flowing today.

    Haigen-Diaz: The Federal Reserve controls short-term rates, but not long-term rates; low long-term returns imply investors expect a fragile economy, forcing the Fed into repeated rate reductions

    This perspective is true and not obvious to many including myself. Economists can add another varied perspective.

    Stock-market investors rattled by rising bond yields can blame the Fed, according to this chart. The contentions found in today’s Marketwatch.com read has these varied thoughts. While the Fed controls the short-term bond yields and NO DIRECT HANDLE on long-term rates – its prolonged QE left too much “stock” of liquidity depressing bond yields DESPITE FED’s 2017/2018 quantitative tightening. There is further possibility of the “signaling effect” of short-term tightening on long-term yields (as economy needs expanding liquidity as it grows forward).

    @oxygen, Rabble-rouser
    The Fed officially sets short term rates. It also, unofficially, sets long term rates, as several posters you’ve pointed out. Even if the Fed stays out of the 30 year bond market, inaction is still a decision. It is a fact that the Federal Reserve has been purchasing treasury bonds en masse in order to push yields down.

    When attempts to deleverage and pay down existent debts when crisis struck, by shoving debt down in the form of massive quantitative easing and rampant stimulus spending. Given this, there is no possible way that increasing debt loads will somehow float US out of this disastrous situation.

    I suspect that many investors are willing to take the lower yield of government bonds as they feel these bonds are safer, and yet pay better than CDs, and savings, in particular the tax free ones. So that tells me investors think these corporate bonds are better than the government bonds, even with the taxes.

    So how do one cope with the drop, not rising, reality of interest rates? Investors are not really worried about financial weakness; they just get carried away. It’s difficult to express the pure audacity of this reasoning: disregarding economic fundamentals and following financial markets’ dictates instead.

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
  • Rabble-rouser:

    @ oxygen, Haigen-Diaz:
    You’ve hit it right on the nail! Mate.

    S’pore retail investors have little or no choice in a repressed Investment environment, ie. the investible eco-system of suppressed low yields, with a indiscernible yet very high risks situation which is of PAP’s own making as well as due to the Global artificially depressed low interest rate environment:

    1. SGX collective capitalisation of listed stocks had been in a steep decline – lack of entrepreneurship, no creativity nor innovativeness in our marketplace!

    In the last 2 decades, true business entities had been replaced by bond proxies of property rents collecting vehicles (REITs) & cash throwing vehicles (Income Trust) – all of which were highly indebted, values inflated but made palatable by a low interest rate eco-system;

    2. Giant vacuum of govt revenue collection mechanism sucking up private savings, accumulated capital, etc in favour of a Paramount State’s SWF investment vehicle (Father knows best policy) which itself is questionable (can govts be $hrewd asset traders?);

    3. Fading fiduciary & ethical standards of upholding Investment ideals of protecting the public re: Hyflux situation, Swiber Bonds (to accredited investors) – Question of Alignments with whom;

    4. Question of Astrea series of PE “Bonds” becoming accessible to Ma ‘n Pa investors – other than attractive payable yields but do the “bond” holders know what they are getting into? This is a worrying sign! Govts are supposed to protect the public, not be like Goldman Sachs;

    5. Continual optimism (Perma-Bulls) by many in a downward trending (spiralling?) S’pore property market. This FOMO crowd smacks of Delusional “wannabe” property investors is something to behold – lemmings.

    These guys whose in denial of the “hard” facts & whose blind faith in an inflated asset class & deep inside an unsustainable price bubble were really something. To any clear headed property investors, there is clearly no impetus in this market!

    Methinks that there is a collective psychological problem within people’s mentality these days. No evidence of critical thoughts! But plenty of conditioned crowds in mass hysteria & in a sheep-like trance being herded through the Corral fences to the abbatoir!

    oxygen: YES, GLOBALLY, BOND MARKET IN AGGREGATE IS MUCH LARGER THAN EQUITIES but in smaller capital markets like Lee-jiapore, retail investors has little or no choice if they want to invest in “safe” bonds with lower volatility than equities and commodities.

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
  • oxygen:

    @ Haigen Diaz @ Rabble rouser

    FOUR DAYS AGO IN TRE, I wrote the following WARNING CAPTION in this thread.

    oxygen: Lower and lower, worst still negative interest rate environment is spawning a whole cultivation of zombie technology business outside the FAANG. Take a good look at the last qtrly results of Uber Technologies just announced.

    https://investor.uber.com/news-events/news/press-release-details/2019/Uber-Reports-Second-Quarter-2019-Results/default.aspx

    Revenue was 3.166 bln, reported loss was $5.485 bln, the cash burnt continues post IPO listing. When interest rate normalise (higher if economy rebound), they might not survive. But if economy sours further as credit market tightens of bank lending (which bank wants to lend losing money and worry about non-repayment of principal???), revenue cannot cover operating costs and market development expenses, MY SUSPICION IS THAT A LOT OF HIGH TECH DIGITAL STOCKS AND BUSINESS WILL GO BUST – just like this U-tube presentation warns.

    https://youtu.be/RZV6DnuqY40

    and now Marketwatch today noted this is HAPPENING NOW.

    5 ‘broken things’ in this market that you should be more worried about than the yield curve, according to strategist

    https://www.marketwatch.com/story/5-broken-things-in-this-market-that-you-should-be-more-worried-about-than-the-yield-curve-according-to-strategist-2019-08-21?mod=mw_theo_homepage

    Marketwatch.com : The FAANGs
    Facebook, Apple AAPL, Amazon AMZN, Netflix NFLX and Google’s parent Alphabet GOOG, long the leaders of this relentless bull, rally have been underperforming the broader market and breadth divergences are spreading.

    “This break in leadership is all the more concerning as U.S. small caps have lost about 13% since their peak last August,” Deluard wrote. “Similar divergences were also observed before the September 2000 peak.”

    The FAANG stocks, he points out, account for 17% of the total capitalization of the S&P 500, so, without their support, the market’s upside is limited.

    THE US STOCK MARKET AND ECONOMY ARE IN A TREACHEROUS AND WORRYING STATE.

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
Member Services
Self-SupportMembers Login
Sponsored Advertisement

Search On TR Emeritus
Sponsored Advertisement

Most Recent Comments
  • Smart: @pap Spore is not Smart nation “””70% sheep is not smart. giving pap 70% of the votes is as good as telling...
  • Ministers Protect Themselves: Salaries are low for the working public but things are getting very expensive. However...
  • a sad sad situation: did anyone in the family inform TC of their dire straits situation? if they had maybe they...
  • Harder Truths: Does not matter how needy you are – the servants of the government just do not care. Mostly FT...
  • Longanus Lee Albinus: Mr Tan seems to be having a health problem due to being rich. The 47% retirees who could not...
  • Longanus Lee Albinus: Good on you Mr Kin Lian. Hope you just dun repeat the vote splitting that allowed tony to win....
  • Pioneer heart aches: Felt so sorry or this family,wonder how multimillion dollar ministers sleep at night:bet you...
  • Samuel S: PC Ong said Study hard and work hard and we will be ok. But this case is about a person who contracted...
  • Harder Truths: Apologies- 2nd para should read “The division is racial – ethnicity – as the basis for group...
  • Harder Truths: Aziz – where did you get that idea – that the MP’s are passing themselves off as...
  • they will remain silent: Those multimillion-dollar salaried and bonused PAP leaders will pretend not to have seen or...
  • What is Wrong?: While they are collecting more money, the aged and elderly poor are collecting cardboard boxes!
  • Asd: This is not your own country it’s just a motel
  • There is a difference, bro: In the rule of nature, the race follows the papa. Religion, on the other hand, can be...
  • There is a difference, bro: yep thats it!: just another day in paradise–Phil Collins. the difference...
  • N.Jungne: Aziz, you’re spot on, unfortunately it has been misused.
Announcements
Advertisements
Advertisements
Visitors Statistic
Latest Statistic