Lessees ‘own’ HDB flats because PAP has defined us as owners in H&D Act

 

Phillip Ang

* The author blogs at LikeDatOsoCanMeh.

 

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39 Responses to “Lessees ‘own’ HDB flats because PAP has defined us as owners in H&D Act”

  • TruBlu:

    Renew HDB LEASE for sgs or many may be HOMELESS going forward.

    Sgs deserve much better,NOT mere look-good PG OR MERDEKA *BAGGAGES*?

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  • Total Disrespectfully:

    100m inside is not within 100m.

    Totally abusing the mentality of the citizens, I would say. It’s like the sex pervert dangling a sweetener in front of the small young child. In the good old days, we villagers will teach this pervert a serious lesson he never forget and will never ever do it again.

    It simply means “lessee” has been aliased as “owner” in the H&D for “EASE OF REFERENCE” but now as “ownership of real property [grantee]” with no “Title Deeds” in the context of the LAWS.

    The lesson will be the forfeiture of the 2/3!

    We need to teach them to be respectful with total sincerity to the voters.

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  • To Pseudo-pap:

    You can define us lexicologically as (virtual) owners, that’s probably acceptable to most Singaporeans. What is unacceptable to us is that you’ve defined the selling price of government hdb units to include the market price of the land on which the block is built, now that’s cock and bull crony-capitalists’ vested interests! Especially when your secondary pay packets are hidden behind the holee veil.

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  • PC Ong:

    Philip Ang kena slap in the face already. Now lawyers have confirmed once and for all we own our HDB flats. Just use common sense lah: If you don’t own the flat, how can you possibly sell it? HDB is exactly the same as 99-year leasehold condo.

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  • Try Again:

    Write in again, ask for the “Property & title deeds”.

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  • oxygen:

    OWNER IS DEFINED IN THE H & D ACT TO INCLUDE a person who has purchased a leasehold interest in the property.

    MY SIMPLE QUESTION OF LAW IS THIS – WHO IS OR ARE THE OTHER CONCEALED PERSONS OR ENTITIES UNDISCLOSED WHO OWNS THE PROPERTY since the preceding definition implies part inclusion of ownership of a mere leasehold interest?

    And if HDB purchasers own the property, WHY DOES HE OR SHE NEEDS TO LEASE FROM ANOTHER GHOSTLY UNIDENTIFIED PARTY/PARTIES WHO IS THE REAL OWNER WHO EXERCISE ANIMUS DOMINI

    Animus domini a´nēmūs dō´mēnē . â´nimus da´minī. n.

    “Intention of the sovereign.”An intention to assert sovereignty or ownership over a territory. E.g., “[T]he possession exercised by …

    Leasehold interest merely is possession e.g. I lease a car from you, whilst it is leased to me, I have legal lawful possession BUT THE CAR IS STILL YOUR OWNERSHIP because you command the animus domini. At the end of the lease term, only you and you have all rights to exert sovereignty or ownership of the car WHICH AT ALL TIMES BELONG TO YOU!!

    Faridah E. Pairin reply is a COP OUT SPIN of a tall tale.

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  • oxygen:

    The law definition of animus domini is found at this weblink.

    https://www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/acref/9780195369380.001.0001/acref-9780195369380-e-203

    AH KONG SHOULDN’T TRY TO BLUFF AH SENG WHO NOW HAVE ACCESS TO INTERNET SELF-EDUCATION.

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  • Ostrich Contingent:

    Can we define Indian as Malay?

    Can democracy be defined as one party system?

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  • Lash out:

    I totally agree, they became more and more blatantly disrespectful because sinkies are too timid to speak out or too many social enterprises or link companies working under their roofs for a bowl of rice.

    But I can see nowadays, some lash out at them but hopefully not the same as HK people. I think HK people are brave also.

    I know they are too arrogant to even budge, so the lesson of 2/3 is necessary.

    No pain, never learn.

    Let’s all help the old man to teach them a lesson.

    Total Disrespectfully:
    100m inside is not within 100m.

    Totally abusing the mentality of the citizens, I would say. It’s like the sex pervert dangling a sweetener in front of the small young child. In the good old days, we villagers will teach this pervert a serious lesson he never forget and will never ever do it again.

    It simply means “lessee” has been aliased as “owner” in the H&D for “EASE OF REFERENCE” but now as “ownership of real property [grantee]” with no “Title Deeds” in the context of the LAWS.

    The lesson will be the forfeiture of the 2/3!

    We need to teach them to be respectful with total sincerity to the voters.

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  • Spineless Sinkie Syndrome:

    Is that why Lawyers are pronounced so similarly to Liars?
    No wonder “LEEjiaporeans” have been, and still are, befuddled for more than half a century by that first-class Cambridge Lawyer couple?? Ha!

    I’m sure LEE & LEE & famiLEE can re-define black as brown or even white color? or include a Pig as a person who has purchased an interest in a Monkey too.

    Is this what you call “Sophistry of Semantics” or “Semantical Sophistication”?

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  • big headache in SG:

    this G doesnt know how to honour its own written contracts with the citizens.
    as and when the G feels like it they overturn their self made rules n regulations n change them..
    most of us ordinary sgs have no say..
    even when intelligent individuals with clout speak out,it doesnt do any good.
    rather some even got prosecuted for asking answers to some hard truths.

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  • PaiSei Spelling Mistake:

    Spelling Mistake Correction;

    [but "NOT" as “ownership of real property [grantee]” with no “Title Deeds” in the context of the LAWS.

    Total Disrespectfully:
    100m inside is not within 100m.

    Totally abusing the mentality of the citizens, I would say. It’s like the sex pervert dangling a sweetener in front of the small young child. In the good old days, we villagers will teach this pervert a serious lesson he never forget and will never ever do it again.

    It simply means “lessee” has been aliased as “owner” in the H&D for “EASE OF REFERENCE” but now as “ownership of real property [grantee]” with no “Title Deeds” in the context of the LAWS.

    The lesson will be the forfeiture of the 2/3!

    We need to teach them to be respectful with total sincerity to the voters.

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  • oxygen:

    @ PC Ong

    YOUR HALLUCINATION BELOW IS YOUR FART OF FICTION – NParks have told the nation, HDB is the owner, HDB buyers are just tenants.

    You can’t explain why the seller of HDB leasehold interest must surrender his transfer deed to HDB instead of the new buyer of the resale flat. If the leaseholder owns the flat, why must he/she relates to HDB which is an irrelevant party, in that resale transaction other than possibly notification of change of ownership resulting from that sale/purchase transaction just concluded?

    And you can’t explain why HDB collects a resale levy from the proceeds first before releasing the residual to the leaseholder exiting? Who holds the animus domini in that process and evidence?

    You are either stupid, ignorant, dishonest or just plain mendacity for uttering nonsense here or a synthesis of all of these descript.

    PC Ong: Philip Ang kena slap in the face already. Now lawyers have confirmed once and for all we own our HDB flats. Just use common sense lah: If you don’t own the flat, how can you possibly sell it? HDB is exactly the same as 99-year leasehold condo.

    99-yr leasehold condo can en bloc why HDB leaseholders are barred from this legal opportunity?

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  • WakeupSG:

    https://www.investopedia.com/terms/l/lease.asp

    What is a Lease?
    A lease is a contract outlining the terms under which one party agrees to rent property owned by another party. It guarantees the lessee, also known as the tenant, use of an asset and guarantees the lessor, the property owner or landlord, regular payments for a specified period in exchange. Both the lessee and the lessor face consequences if they fail to uphold the terms of the contract.

    HDB flat lessees are tenants according to the above definition. As tenants we should not be paying property tax which should be paid by the lessor, the property owner or landlord!

    “Normally a landlord charges whatever they can get for rent and then pay all the bills. The owner is responsible for taxes, not tenants. It depends on the lease terms. Generally, residential properties are rented with gross leases that include property tax in the rent.”

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  • Land of Ostriches:

    One old dead man ever said flat price wont fall. This is whatbhe defined as flat depreciation.

    Just because someone defined something does not mean he defined it correctly.

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  • Talk Cock, Sing Song !:

    Owners can be evicted meh ?
    Owners when renting their property….need to get permission meh?

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  • PC Ong! Buck up plz!:

    PC Ong:
    August 13, 2019 at 5:11 pm (Quote)
    Philip Ang kena slap in the face already. Now lawyers have confirmed once and for all we own our HDB flats. Just use common sense lah: If you don’t own the flat, how can you possibly sell it? HDB is exactly the same as 99-year leasehold condo.

    ============================================================================

    Mr Ong ah… The govt proclaimed themselves to be top notch talent worth of their millions.

    But your answers don’t reflect that standards of theirs they so speak about. All I see is hogwash and diversion tactics to skirt the issue. Worse is the over simplifications of things to sweep things under the carpet.

    The many posts here that refute the idea of ownership of house in Sg, and the sore lack of the IB’s defense of the state in this arena, speaks volume of what the truth is.

    Come Mr Ong, please bring your 50 cent gang and break the posts here! Don’t let your master’s already ‘perceived’ non-existent talent be brought to further shambles. You gotta bring them glory!

    Show us! Show us the mental caliber of the type of soldiers the administrators hire! All of them are quite disappointing so far. How to vote for PAP like that???

    ========================================================================

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  • Evil, Greedy And Corrupt:

    Thieves and robbers writing the law book.
    Poor hookwinked sinkies are HDB leegal “owners”, owning all the expenses but not the rights,
    As usual, feeling good reading the statements from thieves.

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  • Pap lhl and lky are overhyped:

    oxygen:
    @ PC Ong

    YOUR HALLUCINATION BELOW IS YOUR FART OF FICTION – NParks have told the nation, HDB is the owner, HDB buyers are just tenants.

    You can’t explain why the seller of HDB leasehold interest must surrender his transfer deed to HDB instead of the new buyer of the resale flat. If the leaseholder owns the flat, why must he/she relates to HDB which is an irrelevant party, in that resale transaction other than possibly notification of change of ownership resulting from that sale/purchase transaction just concluded?

    And you can’t explain why HDB collects a resale levy from the proceeds first before releasing the residual to the leaseholder exiting? Who holds the animus domini in that process and evidence?

    You are either stupid, ignorant, dishonest or just plain mendacity for uttering nonsense here or a synthesis of all of these descript.

    99-yr leasehold condo can en bloc why HDB leaseholders are barred from this legal opportunity?

    U numskull. Lease can be bought and sold..the difference between lease bought and sold is hdb still remians the owner

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  • oxygen:

    @ Pap lhl and lky are overhyped:

    AAARRGH, VIRGIN TELLING AN OLD MAN that leases can be traded, you forgot I have been investing in mining industry for over 40 years where leases can be even farmed out in joint ventures (i.e. not traded but subdivided of rights/obligations division)

    Pap lhl and lky are overhyped: U numskull. Lease can be bought and sold..the difference between lease bought and sold is hdb still remians the owner

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  • PC Ong:

    @Oxygen,

    Please lah, no need use complex legal terms to justify your viewpoint. When we buy HDB, it is to have a roof over our head. Then we can sell it anytime in resale market. We can even pass it on to our children when we die. If this isn’t evidence of ownership, then what is? At the end of 99 years, of course the flat will go back to the government own the land. Same for 99-year leasehold condo, at the end of 99 years, the land goes back to the government. All the characteristics of HDB is exactly the same as 99-year leasehold condo.

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  • HUAT LIAO!! Confirm HDB owners:

    Those stay in 50 yr old Toa Payoh or Queenstown or Marine Parade or AMK or Bedok can go enbloc liao!

    HOOT TUA TUA!!

    Undercut the Braddell View enbloc — they asking $2B, you ask for $1.8B!!

    CDL and other China developers sure bite!!

    Forget about simi VERS or HIP2 — those are to bluff 2 yr olds.

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  • The Scale of Ugly Profiteering:

    So I know this young engineer who told me he heard some hearsay the cost price of prefab materials for a whole block of standard hdb flats does not go beyond S$200,000. That’s some tall story blowing in the wind isn’t it? Well, but I know this chap in Johor who will build a prefab house about 130 sq meters in size with 3 bedrooms (on your own land) for RM30,000….

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  • Idiot but scholar:

    So they can define new meanings to old words defined in the Oxford Dictionary?

    Wow, Singaporeans so smart wor !
    Base on believing!
    No need question and no need demand for proof and audit.

    Super education system.

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  • oxygen:

    @ PC Ong

    REALLY LOUSY STORY-TELLING THERE, making up simplified tale as you go along.

    PC Ong: Please lah, no need use complex legal terms to justify your viewpoint. When we buy HDB, it is to have a roof over our head. Then we can sell it anytime in resale market. We can even pass it on to our children when we die. If this isn’t evidence of ownership, then what is? At the end of 99 years, of course the flat will go back to the government own the land. Same for 99-year leasehold condo, at the end of 99 years, the land goes back to the government. All the characteristics of HDB is exactly the same as 99-year leasehold condo.

    The structure is just attachment to the land, just like a truck or machinery, it is movable and can be destroyed but never the land which is practically indestructable. In property law, land has special value and legal relevance.

    TO ASSERT THAT…….At the end of 99 years, of course the flat will go back to the government own the land…. IS PLAIN RUBBISH ASSERTION which explains why I kicked your butt with this rebut.

    oxygen: You are either stupid, ignorant, dishonest or just plain mendacity for uttering nonsense here or a synthesis of all of these descript.

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  • oldie:

    @ PC Ong

    can you en bloc your hdb like the 99 year leasehold condo? the answer is no. so you do not own your hdb flat. period.

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  • oxygen:

    @ oldie

    YOU PAID PROPERTY TAX BUT CAN’T EN BLOC your hdb – it clearly tells all that PAPpypolitics/PAPpynomics PRETENDS you are the “owner”. You have no strata title unlike 99-yr leasehold condo.

    IT IS ALL ALONG AH KONG BLUFF Ah Seng, Ah Lian and Ah Huay on fake news “ownership” of property value forever reaching the sky.

    oldie: @ PC Ong

    can you en bloc your hdb like the 99 year leasehold condo? the answer is no. so you do not own your hdb flat. period

    PC Ong will never reply to this FULL AND FRANK post COMMENT.

    PC Ong! Buck up plz!: Mr Ong ah… The govt proclaimed themselves to be top notch talent worth of their millions.

    But your answers don’t reflect that standards of theirs they so speak about. All I see is hogwash and diversion tactics to skirt the issue. Worse is the over simplifications of things to sweep things under the carpet.

    The many posts here that refute the idea of ownership of house in Sg, and the sore lack of the IB’s defense of the state in this arena, speaks volume of what the truth is.

    Come Mr Ong, please bring your 50 cent gang and break the posts here! Don’t let your master’s already ‘perceived’ non-existent talent be brought to further shambles. You gotta bring them glory!

    Show us! Show us the mental caliber of the type of soldiers the administrators hire! All of them are quite disappointing so far. How to vote for PAP like that???

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  • Spineless Sinkie Syndrome:

    So many repeated arguments on this HDB lessee versus owner here and on other forums.

    Please learn and share this very simple question to debate with those Sinkies who mistakenly or purposely muddle the issue.

    1) Once you (or Philip Ang) pay-off your HDB housing loan completely. Ask HDB for the Title Deed to your house, since they claim you are “Owner” right?
    See what the letter from their lawyers will tell you then, and share with everyone here if they say you are legal owner or not. Ha!

    2) For private condos and privatized HUDCs, you can get back your Title Deed (from the bank holding it as security) once you redeem your loan.

    Some Sinkies will claim Title Deed is just a piece of paper (nowadays its an electronic record but you still can request a physical document)

    If the Title Deed is not important or trivial, then why are Banks are holding it?
    You think the banks are stupid to hold a useless legal document as security for your big amount of loan they give you??
    So, Title Deed is very IMPORTANT right?

    Therefore, if/when you pay off your housing loan, does HDB returns you any Title Deed if you claim to be “owner” of the said property?

    All those SSS Sinkies will shut-up and be at a loss of words now.

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  • Ostrich City:

    This is a result of the Singapore education system.

    Unquestioning people who base not on audit and evidence but on Believing.

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  • oxygen:

    @ Spineless Sinkie Syndrome

    MATE, me think you put the cart (mortgage settlement) before the horse (legal ownership) where you gonna trapped of deception.

    Tell me what good is it after paying off your mortgage 30 yrs later to receive only a transfer deed (not a title deed, mind you) that tells you the legal owner as leasor is transferring. ONLY a 99-yr leasehold interest to you as a lessee of the “property” (flat). The leasor retained the land and your flat as part of the structure sitting on the land is the ‘TENANT” on the land liable to pay $1 at any time during the lease as ground rent on demand.

    THAT MAKES YOU THE LEESEE as the buyer of the HDB flat and also its tenant. HDB is at all times the LEASOR of the flat and the LANDLORD of the land.

    SO YOU DISCOVER THAT YOU HAVE BEEN “DECEIVED” ONLY AFTER PAYING OFF THE MORTGAGE AND 30 YEARS LATER before you got to see your transfer deed for the first time in your life.

    NOT SO CLEVER OF THIS ADVICE BELOW RIGHT??

    Spineless Sinkie Syndrome: So many repeated arguments on this HDB lessee versus owner here and on other forums.

    Please learn and share this very simple question to debate with those Sinkies who mistakenly or purposely muddle the issue.

    1) Once you (or Philip Ang) pay-off your HDB housing loan completely. Ask HDB for the Title Deed to your house, since they claim you are “Owner” right?
    See what the letter from their lawyers will tell you then, and share with everyone here if they say you are legal owner or not. Ha!

    I SUGGEST YOU READ CAREFULLY THIS WEBLINK BELOW TO UNDERSTAND IN LAYMAN TERMS WHAT IS OWNERSHIP AND WHAT IS NOT in the practical world application.

    Amazon is launching a new program to donate unsold products, after reports that millions were being destroyed.

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/amazon-is-launching-a-new-program-to-donate-unsold-products-after-reports-that-millions-were-being-destroyed/ar-AAFOeOD?srcref=rss

    Amazon got possession of those unwanted inventory (PROPERTY), WHY NOT SELL IT FOR ABSOLUTE PROFIT AND KEEP IT IN THEIR POCKETS?

    Why they previously has to destroy it and now donate it?

    READ THE LAW DEFINITION OF -

    -ANIMUS POSSIDENDI (possession) and

    - ANIMUS DOMINI (sovereignty/ownership)

    and of course, THINK WHY IN COMPLIANCE OF PROPERTY LAW IS AMAZON DOING THESE!!!!

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  • Spineless Sinkie Syndrome:

    oxygen:
    @ Spineless Sinkie Syndrome

    MATE, me think you put the cart (mortgage settlement) before the horse (legal ownership) where you gonna trapped of deception.

    Oxygen, you totally missed the sarcasm in my rhetorical question in #(1).
    It was meant for Philip Ang (& also general readers here), to give them bullet points to grill HDB further with regards to their re-definition of “owner” in the H&D Act.

    It was not directed at you lah, relax Mate.
    You are right though legal ownership is the core issue here, separate from mortgage settlement.

    However, I’m only using mortgage settlement as a means to force the HDB legal team into a corner and show everyone that there IS a fundamental Difference between a property LEASE vs OWNER.

    Instead of arguing on various technicalities such as whether you are allowed to sell / transfer a lease, or whether can en-bloc or not, or whether one can make a profit off a lease or not, or whether Animus Domini or Possidendi and/or Corpus Possessionis applies here etc… ad infinitum.

    [Note: We can argue till midnight on applicability of Roman adaptions into Common (British) Law or split hairs over Latin terms, but we will get nowhere and besides, most Sinkies can't understand such technicalities as well as Liars...I mean Lawyers, and I'm no Lawyer :]

    The basic and NON-Ambiguous difference between a property lease and ownership, is that you can take possession of the Title Deed, if you are an Owner in the absolute legal sense of the word; regardless of how Liars create all sorts of secondary instruments or “re-definitions” to muddle it.
    Get it?

    Since Philip Ang shared with us the somewhat disingenuous HDB response, then I’m saying the next step to corner their legal team is to ask for the Title Deed, which will expose their malfeasance.

    Now, I’m not encouraging you nor others to pay-off your HDB loan merely to demonstrate some legal definitions.
    Most folks won’t have the resources to do that kind of exercise in vindication (unless Phillip Ang has conveniently paid-off his HDB loan or can find some HDB “owner” who has already done so, and to write in again to HDB and share their final response with everyone ;)

    Hence, my sharing on pointers to settle such endless arguments.

    So, I may not be as clever as you with legalese or latin phrases, but I sure know what is a Title Deed (with all the attendant rights of ownership) because I have redeemed a private property loan before.

    Can any HDB “owner” shout out that he has taken possession of his HDB Title Deed?
    Now that’s a rhetorical question for everyone.

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  • oxygen:

    @ Spineless Sinkie Syndrome:

    MATE, MY POINT IS THAT HDB MIGHT GIVE YOU a transfer deed, NOT A TITLE DEED because they are the leasor/owner & landlord and you as a purchaser of HDB is the lesser of the premises and a tenant of the land.

    AND YOU ONLY DISCOVER IT (is a transfer of leasehold interest for 99-yr) AFTER YOU PAID UP YOUR MORTGAGE.

    Spineless Sinkie Syndrome: Can any HDB “owner” shout out that he has taken possession of his HDB Title Deed?
    Now that’s a rhetorical question for everyone.

    What is the use of this discovery (after financial settlement of all mortgage) that you are mere lessee and tenant BUT YOU PAID FOR THE LAND AND TOLD THAT the value of “your property” will rise to high heaven forever?

    A lot of peasants is mistaken that their physical possession is “proof” of “ownership”. It is NOT. Amazon got possession of those unwanted third party (seller/buyer) property BUT IT IS NOT THEIR ANIMUS DOMINI. To sell them and keep the proceeds as profit (cost to Amazon is zero $) is THEFT OF PROPERTY belonging to others. So Amazon was forced to destroy them in the past and now donate it to charity.

    The concept of property ownership extends way beyond physical structures, it extends underwater to lakes or river banks to corpses to human sperms and eggs.

    WHICH IS WHY PROVING ANIMUS DOMINI (sovereignty of final outcome) is the deciding factor in proving ownership. HDB’s purchasers DO NOT have these as lessee and tenant in a legal subordinated position. They have no strata titles to land and can’t enbloc.

    And this is irrelevant too.

    Spineless Sinkie Syndrome: It was not directed at you lah, relax Mate.

    I haven’t thought about it. Just the issue of ownership definition is at its core and the cruz of my post refutation of your proposition, mate.

    BUT SINCERELY THANK YOU FOR YOUR REJOINDER TO ADD TO THIS CONVERSATION.

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  • Spineless Sinkie Syndrome:

    oxygen:
    @ Spineless Sinkie Syndrome:

    MATE, MY POINT IS THAT HDB MIGHT GIVE YOU a transfer deed, NOT A TITLE DEED because they are the leasor/owner & landlord and you as a purchaser of HDB is the lesser of the premises and a tenant of the land.

    AND YOU ONLY DISCOVER IT (is a transfer of leasehold interest for 99-yr) AFTER YOU PAID UP YOUR MORTGAGE.

    What is the use of this discovery (after financial settlement of all mortgage) that you are mere lessee and tenant BUT YOU PAID FOR THE LAND AND TOLD THAT the value of “your property” will rise to high heaven forever?

    Oxygen, you just stated the exact same point I made :-)

    My point in the rhetorical question to those HDB “owners”, is that you won’t get back any Title Deed.
    My friend, Transfer Deed is NOT a Title Deed and does not confer legal ownership. So why do you keep bring up all these and confuse everyone?

    Like I already emphasized earlier, all your fanciful Latin terminology and explanations is completely useless to most Sinkies reading this.

    Just go back to the BASICS. That is, proof of legal property ownership here is that you possess the Title Deed.
    The land registry and our courts recognise this document and so do the banks giving out huge property loans. That is more than enough to argue the point with those detractors who claim that they are “owners” of their HDB.

    Technically, your statement below is inaccurate because in some jurisdictions, you still do not “own” the underground water tables even though you may posses the land title above it.

    The concept of property ownership extends way beyond physical structures, it extends underwater to lakes or river banks to corpses to human sperms and eggs…

    In any case, I already said I’m not here to argue on technicalities or legal interpretations with you or anyone.

    There is no need to go too far with irrelevant points on what sperm & eggs or underwater??
    If you go so far out, you might as well say your land titles gives you “ownership” of the column of oxygen above your plot of land and that other people cannot must pay you to use that oxygen column above your land? yes? Oxygen? lol.

    Anyway, I already clarified my position that I’m not encouraging anyone to fully settle their mortgage, like I had done.

    It was just for argument’s sake and to help folks reading this to understand what is meant by property ownership here.

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  • oxygen:

    @ Spineless Sinkie Syndrome

    MATE, YOU MISSED THE FOREST for the tree standing too close.

    Spineless Sinkie Syndrome: My friend, Transfer Deed is NOT a Title Deed and does not confer legal ownership. So why do you keep bring up all these and confuse everyone?

    WHY DO YOU THINK MY OPENING LINE reads

    oxygen: MATE, MY POINT IS THAT HDB MIGHT GIVE YOU a transfer deed, NOT A TITLE DEED beecause they are the leasor/owner & landlord and you as a purchaser of HDB is the lesser of the premises and a tenant of the land

    Peasants DON’T UNDERSTAND the difference between Transfer Deed from Title Deed – the former is just telling you what rights is transfer from Party A to Party B, the ownership/landlord still residing in HDB!

    oxygen: A lot of peasants is mistaken that their physical possession is “proof” of “ownership”.

    which is why technicalities is VERY IMPORTANT in law interpretation. You can’t be more wrong than this assertion.

    Spineless Sinkie Syndrome: In any case, I already said I’m not here to argue on technicalities or legal interpretations with you or anyone.

    TECHNICALITIES IS EVERYTHING and that is illuminated in my example of Amazon.

    oxygen: It is NOT. Amazon got possession of those unwanted third party (seller/buyer) property BUT IT IS NOT THEIR ANIMUS DOMINI. To sell them and keep the proceeds as profit (cost to Amazon is zero $) is THEFT OF PROPERTY belonging to others. So Amazon was forced to destroy them in the past and now donate it to charity.

    And what is “technicalities” in Amazon? Those unwanted inventory which Amazon now donate when they previously destroy DOES NOT HAVE a title deed attached to each of them, right? Or do they?

    It still comes back to the finality of animus domini – in layman terms, who is the sovereign control of final outcome. Imagine now in test-tube babies, some hospital mixed up another person’s sperm with your wife’s egg, don’t the hospital owe you compensation of messing up with your property of sperms and egg? And if you die of a road accident, can someone just cut up your kidney and sell it to the highest bidder for profit without your consent…

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  • oxygen:

    @ Spineless Sinkie Syndrome

    NOW TAKING MY POINT ONE STEP FURTHER – if you bought a property the land extends into a quiet marina shore of a lake or river estuary, IT MATTERS EVERYTHING IF YOUR LAND RIGHTS EXTENDS into the water or not.

    But if you owns the land extending another 50 metres into the water, YOU CAN BUILD WHATEVER BEAUTIFUL PRIVATE JETTY AND IT IS YOUR OWN. Surely that enhance the value of your property.

    PROPERTY RIGHTS to land and structures ARE DEFINED IN THE CONCEPT OF A “bundle of rights” which is admitted in writing via a title deed. Which is why in a lease, I can lease it to you for 5 yrs, 30 years, 99 yrs or whatever. Ownership of land is FEE SIMPLE i.e. in perpetuity.

    oxygen: The structure is just attachment to the land, just like a truck or machinery, it is movable and can be destroyed but never the land which is practically indestructable. In property law, land has special value and legal relevance

    I can even lease you a land of 99-yrs with a closing term attached of – you pay me $100K at the end of the term, the land/structure above it is yours to perpetuity – much like a hire purchase agreement.

    Property law extends to even money found on the street or even in supermarket. Is it finder keeper or it belongs to the supermarket? I am sure it is NOT the supermarket because of ANIMUS DOMINI rule of property law.

    Read this case law for the answer on “technicalities”

    Bridges v. Hawkesworth Court of Queen’s Bench 21 L.J. Q.B. 75 (1851)

    https://www.quimbee.com/cases/bridges-v-hawkesworth

    That case law survive since 1851 in the courtroom decisions in India, USA, Canada, NZ, Australia and Hong Kong.

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  • Spineless Sinkie Syndrome:

    oxygen:
    @ Spineless Sinkie Syndrome

    MATE, YOU MISSED THE FOREST for the tree standing too close.

    WHY DO YOU THINK MY OPENING LINE reads

    Peasants DON’T UNDERSTAND the difference between Transfer Deed from Title Deed – the former is just telling you what rights is transfer from Party A to Party B, the ownership/landlord still residing in HDB!

    which is why technicalities is VERY IMPORTANT in law interpretation. You can’t be more wrong than this assertion.

    TECHNICALITIES IS EVERYTHING and that is illuminated in my example of Amazon.

    And what is “technicalities” in Amazon? Those unwanted inventory which Amazon now donate when they previously destroy DOES NOT HAVE a title deed attached to each of them, right? Or do they?

    It still comes back to the finality of animus domini – in layman terms, who is the sovereign control of final outcome. Imagine now in test-tube babies, some hospital mixed up another person’s sperm with your wife’s egg, don’t the hospital owe you compensation of messing up with your property of sperms and egg? And if you die of a road accident, can someone just cut up your kidney and sell it to the highest bidder for profit without your consent…

    Oxygen, I think you should be calling yourself “Lack-of-Oxygen” instead.
    You’re CONTRADICTING yourself now, with your brain not working due to lack of oxygen.

    —–
    IF you think “Peasants don’t even understand the DIFFERENCE between a simple Transfer Deed and Title Deed”, then do you seriously think they will understand those TECHNICALITIES you mentioned, such as your Animus Domini, Animus Possidendi or your other academic concepts, complex case studies or Latin-ology? lol.
    —–

    I already told you here many times. Go back to my original and BASIC point.
    KEEP IT SIMPLE & STUPID. You going in circles bringing in what Amazon examples or other IRRELEVANT topics will only confuse the issue even more for your “Peasants”…. unless that happens to be one of your motives here? ;-)

    Anyone (Philip Ang, you or others) who are eligible can simply write in to HDB legal team to ask for their HDB Title Deed, And thereafter share their official reply with everyone here.
    That will demonstrate, beyond a doubt, on this question of whether you are truly a HDB “owner” or “Lessee”. Full Stop.

    PS: I will not waste any further time on you with replies here, if I see that you cannot even get your basic logic right and is simply arguing in circles for the sake of arguing.
    Good night and breath in more Oxygen folks.

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  • oxygen:

    @ Spineless Sinkie Syndrome:

    MATE, I CAN SEE OBVIOUSLY THAT YOU ARE AGITATED UNNECESSARILY in this debate. I choose NOT to play to your gallery when you fell into the pit hole of this distracting attack earlier.

    Spineless Sinkie Syndrome: you might as well say your land titles gives you “ownership” of the column of oxygen above your plot of land and that other people cannot must pay you to use that oxygen column above your land? yes? Oxygen? lol.

    and now this strange detour again

    Spineless Sinkie Syndrome: Oxygen, I think you should be calling yourself “Lack-of-Oxygen” instead.
    You’re CONTRADICTING yourself now, with your brain not working due to lack of oxygen.

    —–

    MATE, YOU OBVIOUSLY CLUELESS OF WHAT PROPERTY LAW ON OWNERSHIP MEANS. Here is a real world case example recently of a Sydney developer – who practically (criminally) broke into an otherwise unoccupied (abandoned) property, take possession of that and demonstrate intent to exercise sovereignty of final outcome (animus domini doctrine) and won the court case against the daughter of the deceased owner. The developer WHO STOLE THIS PROPERTY DOES NOT HAVE THE TITLE DEED nor even proof of his purchase (otherwise good evidence of ownership) payment made.

    Developer wins court battle to become owner of vacant Sydney house

    https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/developer-wins-court-battle-to-become-owner-of-vacant-sydney-house-20181031-p50d4v.html

    HE JUST MOVED INTO THE DERELICT PROPERTY, RENOVATE IT AND RENT IT OUT AS IF HE IS THE REAL OWNER.

    The daughter of the real owner sue to reclaim the property AND LOST THE COURT CASE.

    The previous owner’s daughter and grandchildren were ordered to pay Mr Gertos’ court costs.

    From this case, it is clear that property is a generic concept – it range from housing accommodation to cash to land, air rights, to corpses to sperm to publishing (copyright) to hospital medical record (confidential).

    Property law ownership is JUST A BUNDLE OF RIGHTS ATTACHED that is defended or defeated on animus domini evidence.

    INCIDENTALLY, YOU HAVE PAID UP YOUR MORTGAGE.

    Spineless Sinkie Syndrome: Anyway, I already clarified my position that I’m not encouraging anyone to fully settle their mortgage, like I had done.

    WHY DON’T YOU SUPPLY EVIDENCE here OF YOUR TRANSFER OR TITLE DEED show you are leaser/owner or lessee/tenant?

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  • oxygen:

    @ Spineless Sinkie Syndrome,

    SINCE YOU CONFESSED TO HAVING DONE (paid up your HDB mortgage), you would have secured your “ownership” document – be that the hypocritical transfer deed or the real title deed.

    So why you resorted to hypocritical dancing around of truth KNOWN TO YOU most definitely if that was a transfer deed or a title deed – which WILL DEMOLISH ALL DOUBTS (to you at least) of your ownership or otherwise – AND INSTEAD INEXPLICABLY DETOURED WITH THIS MISLEADING MISDIRECTION OF TRE READERS HERE LIKE ME WITH THIS EXHORTATION.

    Spineless Sinkie Syndrome: Anyone (Philip Ang, you or others) who are eligible can simply write in to HDB legal team to ask for their HDB Title Deed, And thereafter share their official reply with everyone here.
    That will demonstrate, beyond a doubt, on this question of whether you are truly a HDB “owner” or “Lessee”. Full Stop.

    WHAT ARE YOU HIDING FROM US AND WHY?

    Actually, no need for Philip Ang, me and others to write to HDB legal team to ask for title deed – HDB can simply blindsided all by saying it is unnecessary for you to enquire as it is in our (HDB) safe-keeping for your protection from risks of fraudulent dealing!!

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  • oxygen:

    @ Spineless Sinkie Syndrome

    SHOULD YOU FIND Bridges v. Hawkesworth Court of Queen’s Bench 21 L.J. Q.B. 75 (1851) beyond you of illumination of animus domini doctrine.

    https://www.quimbee.com/cases/bridges-v-hawkesworth

    My next qouted case example ofDeveloper wins court battle to become owner of vacant Sydney house should be easier of illumination of the same principle

    https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/developer-wins-court-battle-to-become- -of-vacant-sydney-house-20181031-p50d4v.html

    In this instance, how is the principle of animus domini demonstrated??

    Quite simply, the intruding developer Mr. Gertos

    - HE JUST MOVED INTO THE DERELICT PROPERTY, RENOVATE IT AND RENT IT OUT AS IF HE IS THE REAL OWNER.

    - he hired a builder who made the home watertight, secured it and changed the locks. He consulted a lawyer about his legal rights, then began to renovate the property, incurring “significant expense”…. then rented out.

    IF SIMPLE EXPLANATION LIKE THIS IS STILL BEYOND YOUR INTELLECT, here is one interesting case of English “property” law case.

    Parker v British Airways Board

    [1982] 1 QB 1004 is an English property law case decided by the Court of Appeal. The case establishes the rights that a person has to a chattel found on the surface of the land.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parker_v_British_Airways_Board

    Here the “property” in contest is not something like your HDB, private condo or landed property of housing accommodation BUT THE LEGAL FIGHT IS WHO OWNS THE gold bracelet on the floor of an executive lounge at Heathrow airport.

    You see property law concepts is GENERIC – ranging from housing to bracelet to cash to corpse to sperm to egg to even your property rights to personal information data you supply to hospital (not for sale or failed of protection from computer hackers etc)

    So how is the doctrine of animus domini applied in Parker vs British Airways demonstrated in the Court of Appeal decision?

    Court of Appeal : the bracelet had been found in an area frequented by the public that British Airways Board did not exercise sufficient control over. British Airways Board were thus unable to assert superior title over the braceletO

    THE LEGAL CATCH PHRASE….DID NOT EXERCISE SUFFICIENT CONTROL… means British Airways failed to prove animus domini which in LAYMAN LANGUAGE means WHO EXERCISE POWER OF CONTROL OVER FINAL OUTCOME.

    The gold bracelet DOES NOT HAVE A TITLE DEED ATTACHED but it is still a “property” case law decision similar to my illumination using Amazon case example.

    READ AND LEARN MORE, MATE.

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