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Why Asean Must Not Be Fooled By The US

Last Thursday ASEAN leaders meet with President Biden at the White House for a two-day summit as part of an effort to offer a united front against China and US announced $150 million in new investments in the region, including trade and human rights. If the Biden administration truly wants to draw SE Asia away from China, they are going to have to invest considerably more that 150 million. China’s Belt and Road Project, as well as its more current Digital Silk Road initiative, are promising billions in investment to Southeast Asian countries in exchange for them not allowing US military vessels to travel through their waters. While these proposals have so far been rebuffed in order to avoid alienating the US market, these nations will do everything it takes to survive in uncertain economic times.

Who will believe that the US is looking to treat other non-Western countries equally and fairly? Are ASEAN countries foolish enough to believe that they will be treated as an equal by the US and its allies NATO once they have turned against China? Even if people don’t remember their colonial past, what is happening today (the WTO, the IMF, the World Bank etc. as instruments for maintaining Western superiority) is convincing enough to lead them to believe that they will never be more than a pawn in the contest between superpowers.

The West’s behavior towards the rest of the world, with policies driven mostly by the desire to maintain white supremacy. This is of course vehemently denied by Western governments, who try to portray themselves as benevolent to the rest of the world. However, just one look at US internal politics will give someone pause. The spa shootings in Georgia of ethnic Asians and the latest at a supermarket in Buffalo, shows racial hate crimes on the rise. Social measures of racial equality have been declining all the while politicians give lip service to equality and justice. And at least one major party no longer bothers even to give lip service.

It is on record, a waffling between China and the US. No hope of real change on any of that. ASEAN has its own internal rivalries and machinations that they will not subordinate to broader US geopolitical interests. Singapore and Indonesia’s leaders are on record as saying they will not isolate China and do not want a policy that divides Asia. Less said about Myanmar and Laos the better. The rest are basically in the same boat. Some members are more than a little uneasy with the new US led military organization the so-called QUAD (Australia, US, India, and Japan) in the region. Just look at how the Solomon Islands is now being threatened by the US and Australia for not bending the knee to American interests. Suddenly the US has become extremely interested in “promoting democracy” there until the current government is overthrown.

ASEAN knows what will be happening economically in the region over the next 20-30 years. They would like to avoid war. The US track record on that matter when it decides to “focus” on your region is not good.

“Destined For War: Can America and China Escape Thucydides’s Trap?”

The subtleties of civilized living require an understanding of human functioning through centuries of ethical dilemmas, missteps and their consequences. Searching for meaning and purpose in our lives is not a trivial matter to be left to Thucydides? We’ve tried that already.

Trade sanctions in lieu of bullets is often proposed as means of conflict. While parallels between now and then abound, lessons are less plentiful. In the end, Thucydides’ history does not instruct us on how to exploit or avoid certain situations, instead instilling the simple truth that given our nature, there will always be situations that we cannot avoid and, if we try to exploit, will have unintended consequences.

Are we in a good spot?

 

Sjorne Shen

 

 

yyy
READER COMMENTS BELOW

56 Responses to “Why Asean Must Not Be Fooled By The US”

  • too little:

    $150 Million ?
    Too little…
    Need to give much more…should be in Billions.

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  • xoxo:

    Ang mohs feel the China threat and are trying hard to impede China’s advancement.
    This is so obvious.

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  • xoxo:

    Biden spoke at Buffalo,NEW YORK,and calls *white supremacy* as poison but the way USA treats Asian countries is just that!
    What hypocrisy!

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  • Partial truth?:

    Colonial past ?

    Surprisingly many old man i spoken to in coffeeshops still prefer Sg to be under colonial rule then PAP.

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  • @S Shen:

    If road belt promises are that good, why Sri Lanka and Pakistan in present status.

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  • myfirstscrew:

    Since World War 1 till now, US has been a super power. Did they bully or intimidate you that you feel so bitter?

    Suddenly China is now super power, you feel US is trying to con ASEAN into submission?

    China Super Power status is done by intimidating South China Seas nations, Wolf Warrior Diplomacy and issuing all kind of threats. Is this why you back China against US?

    Do you know how many MNCs exited China because Chinese govt wants to get rid of all foreign technologies and also time and time again intimidating and harassing MNCs because of history. The likes of Korean (e.g. Lotto chain) and Japanese ship yard businesses all moving out of China. You also want to blame US for this?

    If you allow China to rule, it is what you will get by looking at PAP. China is more ruthless and self centred than PAP. I give US any time, at least it is democractic unlike authoritarian regime where they rule by party or family interest.

    Seems like many CCP lovers and admirers buying Chinese propaganda of West trying to undermine Chinese progress.

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  • SS:

    @S Shen:
    If road belt promises are that good, why Sri Lanka and Pakistan in present status.

    A case study of 2 countries in serial crisis where bad economics and poor governance played key roles. A key feature of Sri Lanka is rampant corruption, starting with the Rajapaksas.

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  • Smart Nation:

    @myfirstscrew:
    May 18, 2022 at 6:09 am
    “If you allow China to rule, it is what you will get by looking at PAP. China is more ruthless and self centred than PAP. I give US any time, at least it is democractic unlike authoritarian regime where they rule by party or family interest.”

    Response: There is no reason to think that CN is more trustworthy than the US. If the US were to leave the Asia-Pacific region, CN will fill the vacuum. The CCP will assert its might on countries in the region, none of which can stand up to it. The Paracel is a good example. Chinese navy in the SCS can stop any ocean carriers by claiming territorial water. Chinese hegemony will be felt even more than the USA because of its proximity in the region. Any country which refuses to play ball will face China’s wrath.

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  • BK:

    Thank you @Sjorne Shen

    But US-China relations is a subset, a significant subset, but a subset of the Asean equation. The individual countries are more than capable actors in this equation.

    1.Indonesia/Natuna Islands-https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/exclusive-china-protested-indonesian-drilling-military-exercises-2021-12-01/

    2. Vietnam – “Indeed, China’s unpopularity in Vietnam is unrivaled. Most Vietnamese consider resistance against China to be the continuation of a thousand-year conflict. The Vietnamese collective chronicle, as communicated by the country’s textbooks, is overstocked with tales of heroic Vietnamese martyred by China.” https://asia.nikkei.com/Opinion/Chinese-aggression-pushes-Vietnam-ever-closer-to-Washington

    3. Phillipines/ South China Sea – “Duterte’s September 23, 2020 speech at the United Nations General Assembly was another indication he had turned the corner on China. He directly addressed the issue of South China Sea disputes by noting the 2016 ruling was “beyond compromise,” adding “we firmly reject attempts to undermine it.” It was the most direct confrontation with Beijing Duterte ever risked, and it showed his position against China was hardening.”https://www.rand.org/blog/2021/05/china-has-lost-the-philippines-despite-dutertes-best.html

    4. Malaysia/ South China Sea – “..Malaysia gave China something of a jolt three months later, when it filed a submission with the United Nations to better delineate its continental shelf claims in the South China Sea, a move that no doubt irked Beijing.” https://www.fpri.org/article/2020/01/a-faint-breeze-of-change-malaysias-relations-with-china/

    The above are territorial disputes with China that define sovereignty. The reason why Asean favors US navy and continue to support US military presence is not because they like US, but it is in their national interest. The China narrative likes to confuse the issue but pointing it at the US. But the facts are, China is threatening Asean sovereignty.

    As for racism, Im not sure that is not practiced by China on Xinjiang and Tibet, no shooting, but a systemic way of undermining local culture and political freedom.

    Yes, I think the case of Solomon proved US hypocrisy, par for course for such powers.

    Asean countries will try to use both US and China rivalry to its advantage. And hopefully,it may inevitably let Asean really become an Oasis for a generation or two.

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  • Ndy:

    Not just White supremacist, not just Hooligans they have regressed into a Barbaric state of the Stone Age. Killing, Stealing to satisfy their Greed and animalistic instinct of Dominance hierarchy.

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  • Singaporeans R Free Riders:

    I would have name the thread title:
    Why Asean Must Not Be Fooled By China and The US.

    My stand: Balance of power
    The balance of power theory in international relations suggests that states may secure their survival by preventing any one state from gaining enough military power to dominate all others.[1] If one state becomes much stronger, the theory predicts it will take advantage of its weaker neighbors, thereby driving them to unite in a defensive coalition. Some realists maintain that a balance-of-power system is more stable than one with a dominant state, as aggression is unprofitable when there is equilibrium of power between rival coalitions.[1]

    Whether it is the US, Russia or China, all must be kept on their toes to prevent them from bullying other countries.

    1. Kick Japan and US out of Okinanwa. Okinawa don’t belong to Japan anyway.
    https://bit.ly/3Psvr48

    2. Kick China out of South China Sea. No such thing as 9 dotted lines.

    3. Kick Russia and corrupted Zelenksy out of Ukraine
    https://bit.ly/3wnDcR9

    Corrupted UKraine imported 80,000 luxury cars in midst of war.
    Watch video at timeframe 5:11
    https://bit.ly/3NndVMS

    Angry Ukrainian Tuber ask Putin to bomb the custom with 80,000 luxury cars.

    While the lower rank and average Ukrainian are dying at the frontlines, Zelenksy and his gang are busy making profits out of their death.

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  • the arena within a country:

    //I would have name the thread title:
    Why Asean Must Not Be Fooled By China and The US.

    My stand: Balance of power
    The balance of power theory in international relations suggests that states may secure their survival by preventing any one state from gaining enough military power to dominate all others.//

    clap clap clap ?? agree very much leh ?? now hor in the arena within a country hor, need oppo to have a balance of power unless one side (especially the white monkey idiots ??) get too powerful to dominate all others hor ???

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  • Real Democracy:

    The Americans subtlely told the Asean leaders during the summit that they were going to send American Coast Guards to patrol the SC Sea. Coast Guards are primarily used to patrol coastal seas of a country. Indirectly the Americans are telling the Asean leaders, SC Sea belongs to the Americans and they are sending their Coast Guards to patrol the area, without the need to ask the Asean country for permission.

    Do the Asean leaders understand the implications? Starting with one Coast Guard patrol boat, eventually the American Coast Guards would be all over the SC Sea. This is like allowing the wolf into a hen house.

    The Americans are claiming the SC Sea as theirs. Asean has no say on this. They are sending their Coast Guards to patrol their SC Sea.

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  • @Real Democracy

    Not to worry, act nia, the americans won’t dare to really piss off the Chinese and send their big guns to Chinese waters or the Chinese might eventually sink them.

    Worst case scenario, the Chinese may also send their coast guard to patrol the waters off Hawaii. lol

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  • Real Democracy:

    The Americans boasted about their littoral combat ships to challenge Chinese warships in SC Sea. Now China is launching super size Coast Guard patrol ships and a series of 054s and 055s that made these American littoral combat ships like paper boats.

    These paper boats built in 2019, 3 years ago, are now being withdrawn and scrapped as they are no match to the enormous 054s and 055s.

    What a joke, what a waste of funds!

    Tech: As far as I know, these Chinese new super-sized Coast Guard patrol ships are actually cruiser-class warships. Imagine them being sent to patrol in waters outside Hawaii. lol

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  • PAP mandate strong:

    Hahaha sorry to rain on your parade.

    So many Ang Mo navy vessels sailed thru SCS even Taiwan ?

    Many ang mo planes repeatedly landed in Taiwan despite China’s warning. We only see China’s bottom line continue to back off and stretched backwards. 有種馬上開打.

    China’s daddy Russia already waterloo in Ukraine. Since many weapons mimic from Russia. If China’s military capability is just behind Russia or even in par with. I seriously have doubts in the optimism.

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  • MarBowling:

    Real Democracy:
    May 18, 2022 at 11:32 am (Quote)
    The Americans boasted about their littoral combat ships to challenge Chinese warships in SC Sea. Now China is launching super size Coast Guard patrol ships and a series of 054s and 055s that made these American littoral combat ships like paper boats.

    These paper boats built in 2019, 3 years ago, are now being withdrawn and scrapped as they are no match to the enormous 054s and 055s.

    What a joke, what a waste of funds!

    Tech: As far as I know, these Chinese new super-sized Coast Guard patrol ships are actually cruiser-class warships. Imagine them being sent to patrol in waters outside Hawaii. lol

    Response: THINK very soon, some of those paper boats will dock at Changi Naval Base to be REINFORCED by adding or replacing them with BETTER PAPER QUALITY!

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  • PAP mandate strong:

    @ A case study of 2 countries in serial crisis where bad economics and poor governance played key roles. A key feature of Sri Lanka is rampant corruption, starting with the Rajapaksas.

    Well said. These 2 countries especially Pakistan ( good friend of China 巴鐵 ) if their ways or customs are always like that. Whether its road belt projects where billions are offered or just millions are offered. The results will always be the same. The people lives never improve.

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  • Malaysia ok:

    https://www.malaymail.com/news/malaysia/2022/05/14/asean-leaders-stands-firm-on-international-issues-during-meeting-with-us-pr/2058805

    Malaysia told US to be honest. He also told US that ASEAN does not want outside interference in the SCS.

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  • John Doe:

    BK:
    Thank you @Sjorne Shen

    But US-China relations is a subset, a significant subset, but a subset of the Asean equation. The individual countries are more than capable actors in this equation.

    1.Indonesia/Natuna Islands-https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/exclusive-china-protested-indonesian-drilling-military-exercises-2021-12-01/

    2. Vietnam – “Indeed, China’s unpopularity in Vietnam is unrivaled. Most Vietnamese consider resistance against China to be the continuation of a thousand-year conflict. The Vietnamese collective chronicle, as communicated by the country’s textbooks, is overstocked with tales of heroic Vietnamese martyred by China.” https://asia.nikkei.com/Opinion/Chinese-aggression-pushes-Vietnam-ever-closer-to-Washington

    3. Phillipines/ South China Sea – “Duterte’s September 23, 2020 speech at the United Nations General Assembly was another indication he had turned the corner on China. He directly addressed the issue of South China Sea disputes by noting the 2016 ruling was “beyond compromise,” adding “we firmly reject attempts to undermine it.” It was the most direct confrontation with Beijing Duterte ever risked, and it showed his position against China was hardening.”https://www.rand.org/blog/2021/05/china-has-lost-the-philippines-despite-dutertes-best.html

    4. Malaysia/ South China Sea – “..Malaysia gave China something of a jolt three months later, when it filed a submission with the United Nations to better delineate its continental shelf claims in the South China Sea, a move that no doubt irked Beijing.” https://www.fpri.org/article/2020/01/a-faint-breeze-of-change-malaysias-relations-with-china/

    The above are territorial disputes with China that define sovereignty. The reason why Asean favors US navy and continue to support US military presence is not because they like US, but it is in their national interest. The China narrative likes to confuse the issue but pointing it at the US. But the facts are, China is threatening Asean sovereignty.

    As for racism, Im not sure that is not practiced by China on Xinjiang and Tibet, no shooting, but a systemic way of undermining local culture and political freedom.

    Yes, I think the case of Solomon proved US hypocrisy, par for course for such powers.

    Asean countries will try to use both US and China rivalry to its advantage. And hopefully,it may inevitably let Asean really become an Oasis for a generation or two.

    I quite about agree with u by & large. Well laid out.
    For the Solomons tie up with PRC, one possible reason reported was current regime needed them for possible domestic violence policing.

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  • Soccerbetting2:

    Reported on Straits Times :Quote -”BRUSSELS (AFP, REUTERS) – Finland and Sweden formally applied to join the Nato alliance on Wednesday (May 18) at allied headquarters, setting in motion an accession process that is expected to take only a few weeks.

    “The applications you have made today are an historic step. Allies will now consider the next steps on your path to Nato,” alliance chief Jens Stoltenberg said, after receiving the bids from the Finnish and Swedish ambassadors at Nato headquarters.

    Ratification of all 30 allied parliaments could take up to a year, diplomats say.

    Ahead of Wednesday’s move, Swedish Prime Minister Magdalena Andersson held a joint news conference with Finland’s President Sauli Niinisto.

    “I’m happy we have taken the same path and we can do it together,” Ms Andersson said.

    A quick ratification of Finland’s and Sweden’s applications for Nato membership by the United States would help the whole process go faster, the Finnish president said.

    “If you have a quick process there, it helps the whole process and the timetable for the whole process,” he told reporters at the news conference.

    “That is very important in this context.”

    Mr Niinisto and Ms Andersson are due to meet US President Joe Biden in Washington on Thursday.

    Lawmakers in Finland voted overwhelmingly in favour on Tuesday of joining Nato as a deterrent against Russian aggression….”Unquote.

    Response : Why Asean must not be fooled by the US ? Not only Asean is fooled by the US ,now even northern Europe like Finland and Sweden is fooled by the US to join the Nato ! Wait Tik Tok says Putin will have follow up action if Finland and Sweden join Nato ! World war 3 nuclear may be starting soon ! Pui !

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  • Partial truth?:

    @ Malaysia ok:

    I sincerely hope so for Malaysia sake.

    But with Najib on its way back to power, we will have to cross our fingers.

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  • theforgottongeneration:

    “…Who will believe that the US is looking to treat other non-Western countries equally and fairly? …”
    .
    .
    So, does the author believe China is looking to treat other Asian countries equally and fairly? Who is grabbing the SCS using an nonsensical dash-9 line against many other Asian/ASEAN nations? Who is building artificial islands on outcrops where other nations had not done for centuries? USA?

    Obviously Sjorne doesn’t trust USA (maybe there are good reasons); certainly China is exerting itself openly – maybe Sjorne too naive or too dumb to notice that. So left who – Russia? Yeah, Putin is certainly treating the Eastern Europeans very equally and fairly, hor? Like: I’ve got nukes so you better pay attention Finland and Sweden, hor?

    Does anyone want to consider … India, then?

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  • Singaporeans R Free Riders:

    BK: The reason why Asean favors US navy and continue to support US military presence is not because they like US, but it is in their national interest. The China narrative likes to confuse the issue but pointing it at the US. But the facts are, China is threatening Asean sovereignty.

    Well said.. spot on.

    BK is real politician material unlike the stopid Hong Kees pro democracy rioters who are just plain canon fodders…to be used and dumped like soiled underwear.

    Now, where is fellow Pitch forked Sinkies, the other real politician.

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  • Singaporeans R Free Riders:

    the arena within a country:
    //I would have name the thread title:
    Why Asean Must Not Be Fooled By China and The US.

    My stand: Balance of power
    The balance of power theory in international relations suggests that states may secure their survival by preventing any one state from gaining enough military power to dominate all others.//

    clap clap clap ?? agree very much leh ?? now hor in the arena within a country hor, need oppo to have a balance of power unless one side (especially the white monkey idiots ??) get too powerful to dominate all others hor ???

    You are unable to read ? You need glasses ?

    I say The balance of power theory in international relations…

    Did I mention within a country ?

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  • Singaporeans R Free Riders:

    Malaysia ok:
    https://www.malaymail.com/news/malaysia/2022/05/14/asean-leaders-stands-firm-on-international-issues-during-meeting-with-us-pr/2058805

    Malaysia told US to be honest. He also told US that ASEAN does not want outside interference in the SCS.

    Malaysia is so wrong.

    If US is out of ASEAN, evil CCP will eat up SCS and bully smaller states.

    We need to make use of big countries like US, China and Russia for balance of power.

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  • ah gong:

    2003, lie before UN, cooked up weapon of mass destruction, invade Iraq, killed over 60,000 innocents, destroyed millions of homes, displaced multi millions causing refugee crisis over the next 10 years, illegally use depleted uranium weapons, causing large birth deformity in Iraq, then create a puppet Iraqi government, from there, secure multi billions oil contracts for US oil giants.

    No war crimes investigated by International criminal courts against the world number 1 evil US until now since 2003, 19 years on.

    No compensation of 100 trillions USD at least for the lost of massive infrastructure, lost of lives, and destruction of millions of families in Iraq.

    Not to worry, China, Russia, India will make sure justice is served for this world num 1 evil US in a forseeable future.

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  • SS:

    BK: The above are territorial disputes with China that define sovereignty. The reason why Asean favors US navy and continue to support US military presence is not because they like US, but it is in their national interest. The China narrative likes to confuse the issue but pointing it at the US. But the facts are, China is threatening Asean sovereignty.

    Thank you, BK

    If the US had ratified the UN Convention Law of Sea like nearly all other UN member states — including China– then maybe they could take a more critical position than neutral. It may be neutral with regard to the other handful of countries jockeying for their piece of the South China Sea resource pie but as regards China, the US geopolitical strategy is to rachet up the dispute where they can and use it to increase tensions in Asia, contain China, increase US influence by isolating China and increase arms sales.

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  • Let’s face it, politics is a very complicated and dirty game, not a simple 1+1 =2 kind of thingy that commoners like us can understand.

    There will be bullies and there will be those who are bullied, no country in the world can avoid that, it is just a matter of which bully is the lesser evil and can provide some semblance of a ‘protection’ from the other bully.

    It is already happening in our daily lives, at home, in the office, etc. We are all forced to take sides, no?

    During the pandemic GE, sillyzens were forced to choose the known evil with their “flight to safety” mentality, unknowingly signing their own death/injury warrants for the rest of their lives. They had a choice to go for the lesser evil, but they bet wrongly. What to do?

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  • China very good:

    Western propaganda love to blow up tiny island disputes in SCS into “threatening sovereignty” issues. China threaten Vietnam sovereignty, China threaten Malaysia sovereignty, …

    Well, look here:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_territorial_disputes

    Many countries threatening other countries’ sovereignty.
    US threaten Canada sovereignty
    US threaten China sovereignty
    France threaten UK sovereignty
    India threaten China sovereignty
    India threaten Pakistan sovereignty
    India threaten Nepal sovereignty
    Thailand threaten Myanmar sovereignty
    Japan threaten Russia sovereignty
    Japan threaten China sovereignty
    US threaten NK sovereignty
    Australia threaten China sovereignty
    Greece threaten Turkey sovereignty
    and Malaysia threaten Singapore sovereignty.

    No big deal about threatening sovereignty. Better look at those that actually wiped out other country sovereignty.

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  • Singaporeans R Free Riders:

    TRE Tech: Let’s face it, politics is a very complicated and dirty game, not a simple 1+1 =2 kind of thingy that commoners like us can understand.

    Our great founding father LKY already said before, politics is not a walk in the park.

    “You know, the cure for all this talk is really a good dose of incompetent government. You get that alternative and you’ll never put Singapore together again: Humpty Dumpty cannot be put together again… and your asset values will be in peril, your security will be at risk and our women will become maids in other people’s countries, foreign workers.”

    Apply it to Ukraine: You get that alternative (comedian Zelensky) and you’ll never put Ukraine together again: Humpty Dumpty cannot be put together again… and your people will become refugees in other countries.

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  • concept cannot be applicable:

    //I say The balance of power theory in international relations…//

    aiyoh. balance of power must ONLY apply to international relations meh (just because you decide so ??) ??

    //Did I mention within a country ?//

    aiyoh. did you ?? just because you did not say it does not mean the same concept cannot be applicable in other areas lar ?? power theory hor, most people want power hor (for whatever reason one may have ??) ???

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  • Real Democracy:

    Soccerbetting2:
    May 18, 2022 at 2:55 pm (Quote)
    Reported on Straits Times :Quote -”BRUSSELS (AFP, REUTERS) – Finland and Sweden formally applied to join the Nato alliance on Wednesday (May 18) at allied headquarters, setting in motion an accession process that is expected to take only a few weeks.

    Why are the white men countries rushing to join NATO?

    The Americans told them in plain and simple language, when the white men were united, they conquered and rule the world. All coloured people were colonised and have white men as their masters. Today, the white men’s control of the coloured people is slipping and weakening. It is now or never, to unite and conquer and rule the coloured people again. The window is closing as the coloured people are getting stronger and challenging the dominance of the American Empire. The American Empire alone cannot hold up to the combined force of the coloured people.

    This explains why neutral countries like Switzerland and the Baltic countries decided to give up their neutrality. They also want to be part of the white men’s empire, to rule over the coloured people.

    And there are also some coloured people that like to be ruled by the white men and would also join the white them to conquer and rule over the rest of the coloured people.

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  • Real Democracy:

    Historical perspective of ownership of South China Sea islands

    Historically, the first natives or arrivals to a no man’s land would be the natural owner. This principle can be explained by the bumiputras claiming Malaysia as the sons of the soil. All the big traditional countries owned their land without any dispute except grey areas at the borders of two countries. Exceptions were the lands of USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and many of the islands claimed to be owned by the colonialists. These lands have natives, the original owners, but taken from them under the barrel of the gun. Though the illegal occupants of these lands and islands kept quite about it, it did not make their claims to these lands and islands legitimate.

    The South China Sea islands were visited by Admiral Zheng He in the 14th century and well marked and recorded in the maps of dynastic China. They were no man’s land and the first arrival, founder, would be the natural owner. Period.

    The countries of South East Asia were not countries till after WW2 when they were given independence and statehood. Prior to the 20th century, the South East Asian lands were occupied by tribal chiefs, thousands of them owning small plots of land, but no statehood or nationhood. And their lack of shipbuilding technology, they could only sail the nearby islands, not the islands in the centre of the South China Sea. Thus they did not even know of the existence of the South China Sea islands till the 20th century.

    How are these new countries going to claim the South China Sea islands as theirs today? On what legal basis? The UNCLOS was signed only in 1982. can this new law be retrospective to override the first claimants of the islands, 4 or 5 centuries ago?

    The aggressors in the South China Sea are the South East Asian countries, not China. These new countries are claiming Chinese islands that belonged to China for centuries. It is not China claiming these islands from the South East Asian countries.

    Get the historical facts right before making wild allegations and looking silly.

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  • @ Real Democracy:

    Like that might as well as Putin also join. Dont forget alot of land from China taken by Russia.

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  • theforgottongeneration:

    Real Democracy:

    The South China Sea islands were visited by Admiral Zheng He in the 14th century and well marked and recorded in the maps of dynastic China. They were no man’s land and the first arrival, founder, would be the natural owner. Period.

    ….Get the historical facts right before making wild allegations and looking silly.

    So, shouldn’t China return Tibet back to the Tibetans? Real Stupidity dress as Real Democracy, hor? Oh, the 177-ranked media standards, hor.

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  • BK:

    Lol. These CCP jokers are laughable. The only consistent trait is hyperbole.

    Which international law agrees with China 9 dashline? None.

    If u argue on the basis of first to land and sea are owners, then why is China occupying Xinjiang and Tibet? Then according to u, they have every legitimate right to rebel against China.

    China signed the UNCLOS, now they have broke it. Why should SEA trust China? Isnt that the reason why more and more SEA and East Asians are having military training with US?

    Simple verbosity may excite your Chauvinism, but dont confuse that with international law, if u want to play with laws only your Ah Kong makes, be my guest, everyone is free to be an idiot.

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  • SS:

    theforgottongeneration:
    “…Who will believe that the US is looking to treat other non-Western countries equally and fairly? …”

    So, does the author believe China is looking to treat other Asian countries equally and fairly? Who is grabbing the SCS using an nonsensical dash-9 line against many other Asian/ASEAN nations? Who is building artificial islands on outcrops where other nations had not done for centuries? USA?

    Obviously Sjorne doesn’t trust USA (maybe there are good reasons); certainly China is exerting itself openly – maybe Sjorne too naive or too dumb to notice that. So left who – Russia? Yeah, Putin is certainly treating the Eastern Europeans very equally and fairly, hor? Like: I’ve got nukes so you better pay attention Finland and Sweden, hor?

    Does anyone want to consider … India, then?

    And how’s this for stupidity to judge ASEAN’s alliance with US solely on the metric of what it provides for countering a military threat by China? In an age of asymmetric threats and international challenges with no boundaries, a common organization for defense with a shared mix of values is not a bad thing to have.

    The future costs of making mistakes could be so enormous that we need to carefully weigh the present and future benefits of US presence in South China Seas and Taiwan Straits; also weigh carefully the dangers of overextending the alliance to China’s doorsteps. Alliances are meant to deter. Overextending alliances can trigger world wars as we all know. Got it? lol

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  • @ China very good:

    You left out
    Russia threaten China sovereignty China threaten Vietnam sovereignty
    China threaten Japan sovereignty
    China threaten Europe sovereignty
    China threaten Korea sovereignty
    China threaten Myanmar sovereignty

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  • PAP mandate strong:

    Zheng He again ? Same old bs story.

    Not according to 朱元章 不征之國.

    朱元璋把15个国家列为“不征之国”,告诫后世子孙不要去征服
    https://m.sohu.com/a/316601040_100248928/?pvid=000115_3w_a

    Forever tell half of the stories but hide the other half.

    Not that China dont want to conquer other nation but journey too far too long. Mountains, Rivers, Sea, Forests, insects , wild beasts , malaria, supplies issues,…

    China cant even go to Taiwan until qing dynasty 施琅, and they can go to SCS. Maybe all those China sea pirates but they can’t represent China sovereignty.

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  • China very good:

    Western sheep like to stir trouble in Tibet and Xinjiang provinces of China. The people there are so happy. They have better living standards than most Sinkies.

    https://www.ixigua.com/7097060557831799303?logTag=725f495e5c9bf77d0eca
    https://www.ixigua.com/7055234037576958477?logTag=807ef983060f34bf2f2b

    Compare them with the paradise in USA:
    https://youtu.be/adq1rlWFE4o

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  • theforgottongeneration:

    Real Democracy:
    Historical perspective of ownership of South China Sea islands

    Historically, the first natives or arrivals to a no man’s land would be the natural owner….

    LOL, so by such “historical perspective”, the Moon belongs to USA since everyone acknowledges that the damned Americans were first there. They even planted their flag there, hor. Oh, this may explain why China is now so keen to be the first to reach Mars – it’s all about creating historical perspective, hor.

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  • Real Democracy:

    Only fools believed in the American lie that they landed on the moon.

    With China and Russia attempting to land on the moon, the Americans panicked and wanted to go to the moon to be the first to be there. Did they been there many times?

    Don’t even have a rocket to bring their astronauts to the ISS. Had to hitch a ride on Russian rockets. Now have to depend on Elon Musk’s space taxi to do the job.

    70 years have lapsed and they could not make a return trip to the moon. They have folded up the whole plan to ever set foot on the moon after all the failed attempts other than the big lie that they were there.

    Stupidity has no cure. So many gullibles here.

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  • theforgottongeneration:

    This is how Real Stupidity works:

    1) “Only fools believed in the American lie that they landed on the moon.” – So there are some among us that still think the moon landing was a FAKE. Maybe from the same camp that thinks Cotton is from Sheep, or mee siam has hum. stupid, die stupid, nobody can help such people.

    2) “With China and Russia attempting to land on the moon, the Americans panicked…” – The space race in the 1960s was between Russia and USA. China was still making do with flying junk from WW2-era handed over by other nations. Only the 177-ranked media and its doggies will say China was in the race to get to the moon. Real propaganda.

    3) “Don’t even have a rocket to bring their astronauts to the ISS.” The Space Shuttle was an attempt at reusable space vehicles – at least someone tried something. Real Morons didn’t do anything, just try to rewrite history to make themselves look good. That is Real BS for Real Morons disguise as Democracy.

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  • BK:

    The Moon Landing through Soviet Eyes: A Q&A with Sergei Khrushchev, son of former premier Nikita Khrushchev.

    “How widely was the news of the moon landing disseminated in the Soviet Union in advance of the event?

    Of course, you cannot have people land on the moon and just say nothing. It was published in all the newspapers. But if you remember [back then] when Americans spoke of the first man in space, they were always talking of “the first American in space” [not Yuri Gagarin]. The same feeling was prevalent in Russia. There were small articles when Apollo 11 was launched. Actually, there was a small article on the first page of Pravda and then three columns on page five. I looked it up again.”

    https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/apollo-moon-khrushchev/

    In fact, from the article, the Soviet was not even close to reaching the Moon.

    Now, if u want a historical lesson. Take a page from WW2. The Nazis even claimed Shakespeare as their own, in a never ending series of lies that eventually ended with millions dead, and millions of their women raped by the Soviet.

    It starts somewhere, it starts with ppl liked the CCP fanatic here. They copied a few paragraphs here and there, never reading what they pose, only a wish to ingratiate their chauvinistic psycho.

    All it takes is a few % of them to grow. And we will be at war. The same goes for US and the rest of the West as well. The West is getting more authoritarian, the censorship is getting into Russia/China style. A reason why Elon Musk is taking over Twitter.

    The basic premise for Singaporeans is not to favor China or US, but to ensure our survival and keeping our country free from all chauvinism.

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  • Western fan:

    Many Sg sheep are also western sheep.
    Pappy supporters.
    West is good. China is evil. We must be neutral.
    Sanction Russia. Kiss American asses. Blah, blah, blah.

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  • So clever:

    Such a deep question. Which international law agrees with XXX’s claimed territories?

    BK: Which international law agrees with China 9 dashline? None.

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  • xoxo:

    I am generally agreeable with commenters that all sovereign members of UN n other world bodies must abide by AGREED INTERNATIONAL LAWS but how many times USA interfered with other countries’ affairs under the cover of American Democracy most hypocritically?
    And,we simply accept it.
    White Supremacy tendency still exists,even in USA’s own backyard, to a large extent and we must be fair to admit it?

    Why do we sinply overlook it?

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  • BK:

    xoxo:
    I am generally agreeable with commenters that all sovereign members of UN n other world bodies must abide by AGREED INTERNATIONAL LAWS but how many times USA interfered with other countries’ affairs under the cover of American Democracy most hypocritically?
    And,we simply accept it.
    White Supremacy tendency still exists,even in USA’s own backyard, to a large extent and we must be fair to admit it?

    Why do we sinply overlook it?

    Yo bro. Yes, US broke alot of intl laws too. But is SEA supposed to be quiet when its sovereignty is threatened?

    Is SEA supposed to give in to China coz we are against white supremacy? This simple mantra of everything against China is catering to white supremacy is a
    jingoistic mantra for a lacked of rigorous counter arguments. Are we all to lower ourselves to toddlers blabbering liked the CCP fanatics here?

    Why dont we see the perspectives from Indonesia, Vietnam, Japan, South Korea, Malaysia, Australia, Philippines….why are they desiring US navy presence? Thry have no idea whats in their interests?

    Can all these countries be in support of white supremacy?

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  • xoxo:

    @BK
    I wholly agree with you that China must n shud not infringe on the rights or pose any threats to its neighbours just becos it has greater military clout.
    But white supremacy is another issue that exists.
    All powerful countries must abide by international standards n practices and not apply their own righteous reasons like promoting DEMOCRACY N *FREEDOM* as excuses for their actions.

    What is democracy truly?
    Is USA an epitome of true democracy?
    Me humbly wonders.

    Bro,i respect your views here,they are salient and thought-provoking.
    But i dont think USA has ZERO SELF-INTEREST?

    CHEERIO,BRO!

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  • theforgottongeneration:

    BK:

    The basic premise for Singaporeans is not to favor China or US, but to ensure our survival and keeping our country free from all chauvinism.

    Excellent summing up of this topic. However, obviously there are extremists herein ranging from totally pro-Western camp to totally pro-Eastern camp. Their comments betray that they are NOT interested to have a balanced discussion. Some are so extreme to make their case that they sound out-of-this-world.

    On this note, we must remember that most of the technologies we have now (e.g. our indispensable handphones) are from the Western world. Like it or hate it, whoever sets the pace of technology will have the greater influence on the world. Second is the Global Supply Chain. Unfortunately SG has neither, as Fixing Oppies doesn’t produce technology nor make SG a Global Supplier/Player in anything.

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  • BK:

    @xoxo

    Fair comment bro. Thank u and cheers!!

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  • PAP mandate strong:

    好像 one person uses 2 or more monikers. 又是這種爛伎倆.

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  • Bye Bye Morrison:

    After striking fear in Malaysia and Indonesia, this American nuclear attack puppy is finally disappearing. There is however little hope in ASEAN since the incoming one is another attack puppy. Fake democracy with the same rotating attack puppies.

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  • BK:

    theforgottongeneration: Excellent summing up of this topic. However, obviously there are extremists herein ranging from totally pro-Western camp to totally pro-Eastern camp. Their comments betray that they are NOT interested to have a balanced discussion. Some are so extreme to make their case that they sound out-of-this-world.

    On this note, we must remember that most of the technologies we have now (e.g. our indispensable handphones) are from the Western world. Like it or hate it, whoever sets the pace of technology will have the greater influence on the world. Second is the Global Supply Chain. Unfortunately SG has neither, as Fixing Oppies doesn’t produce technology nor make SG a Global Supplier/Player in anything.

    Exactly right. We gravitate to what benefit us, and orbit to what gives us the greatest degree of freedom.

    The last 50-60 years that allow small nation states to prosper relatively freely is an anomaly.

    The challenge forward requires not just the govt but the ability of Singaporeans to produce aesthetics that make us a niche. The argument is that such aesthetics can never be produced in an environment of authoritarianism.

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