7 hours from victory to victimhood for Hamas
October 29th, 2023 | 
Author: 
Any discussion of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict will see three sides locking horns, two with extreme views having no middle ground, and a third with some semblance of balance but always a hidden bias. One single bone of contention that stands in the way of a resolution is Palestinian statehood is mutually exclusive to many Muslims. “From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free” is a battle cry that calls for the annihilation of Israel. This is repeatedly announced publicly by Hamas, Hezbollah, and Iran. Who in his right mind would expect Israel to accept a two state solution with the Sword of Damocles over their heads? Yet all those who push for two state solution at the United Nations have made no attempt to get Hamas, Hezbollah and 28 UN member countries that do not recognise the State of Israel, to do so. The two state solution seems like the only viable one, and the immovable block is not Israel.
The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is very complex. Some base their arguments as if history began in 1948 when it is actually a 3,000 year old story. Yet others freely throw up catchwords of Zionists and Apartheid against those with sympathies aligned with Israel but have no idea of what they are talking. Zionism simply refers to the movement to bring Jews back home in the areas that used to be called Israel, Judea and Samaria. So those who are anti-Zionists deny Jews the right to return to their homeland, but fight for Palestinians the same right. Those who brand Israel an apartheid state do not want to believe 30% of Israelis are Arabs having universal suffrage and representation in parliament. 2 million Arabs live in Israel compared to maybe 100,000 Jews living in all Muslim countries taken together.
I lock horns with Critical Spectator over many issues, but I feel his 2 recent posts on the Palestinian matter offer some good perspectives. Incidentally, Madam Ho Ching, an avid fan, never share these 2 posts. Just as well, for it’s a hot potato and from her perch, she ought to be circumspect.
The conflict is complex and reactions of many are often emotional bothering on hysteria. It behoves on any public figure making a comment to be very careful and yet coming across as fair. PM Lee Hsien Loong offered his views in a recent interview which I thought was very well articulated and unbiased. (Read here.)
Non-Muslims are perplexed why Muslims are overtly sensitive and react so passionately with over-the-top emotion whenever fellow believers somewhere in the world suffer any form of perceived injustice. To understand this, one refers to the Koran and Hadith which have several verses like this one :
"The believers, in their mutual mercy, love, and compassion, are like a single body; when any part of it suffers, the whole body responds to it with wakefulness and fever."
Some interpret it as teaching of ‘eye-for-an-eye’, others say it’s about universal compassion for fellow Muslims. The fact is this is deep in a Muslim's psyche. I remember very well a survey in Malaysia some 50 years ago that tried to determine the priority in the Muslims’ frame of mind, what comes first. Turned out it was Islam, Family, Country, in that order.
It is impossible to argue against apathy and compassion. Unfortunately, they don’t sit well on the high moral horse of humanitarianism with the absence of Muslim indignation of ISIS atrocities against Christians in Iraq and the Yazidi genocide, or the ongoing slaughter of Christians in Armenia and Nigeria, or the recent barbaric Hamas attack on Israeli civilians on October 7. We all saw a celebration instead.
Hamas atrocity? Deny, deny, deny. I get annoyed when online commenters ask me to show proof. The barbarism perpetrated by Hamas is too gruesome to show and out of respect for the dead, I will not display any images or videos here. Deniers must understand Israel has surveillance cameras on every street. Evidence is overwhelming. Understand too that captured and killed Hamas fighters all have mobile phones. A treasure trove of self -incriminating evidence there. Israel has vowed to go after all those who carried out the Oct 7 attack ala the Munich Olympics 1972 where all the terrorists were eventually hunted down. All those mobile phones will lead to the killers ultimately.
In a Tiktok or Whatsapp connected world, the audacity of Hamas’ well-coordinated attack on Israel Oct 7 was celebrated all over the world by supporters within hours. That it was an attack on civilians, which is a war crime, and the barbarism, bothered no one in this crowd. The blog title conveys my feelings on Oct 7. I knew immediately one side of the aisle will celebrate the attack as a victory, up till when Israel reacts, they will then play the victimhood card. It played out right on cue.
Now many members of parliament have tabled questions for discussion in next parliamentary session. A strange coincidence to my preceding blog where I mentioned members of parliament are sleeping and not discussing excess death issues. There is now a sudden interest when it involves the death of foreigners. (That blog has been taken down today at the behest of certain parties for breach of community standards. I maintain there was nothing objectionable, nor was there any misinformation or disinformation in that blog. Why not POFMA but take down? Similarly you can judge for yourself about this blog which I have a feeling may suffer a similar fate. It is an opinion piece, but nothing objectionable.)
As this is a complex and sensitive matter, members who put up their questions have been as diplomatic as possible. Some wanted to understand the government’s position on the Palestinian issue, some asking for provision of humanitarian aid, some wanted condemnation for breaking international laws in warfare (apparently directed against Israel). Let’s not kid ourselves. These are pre-determined questions that the government wants to discuss. They are just farmed out to a few members to file the questions in a faux display of independence Singaporeans call wayang.
None of these members condemned the barbaric Hamas attack on civilians that precipitated the outbreak of full-fledged war. In my opinion, anyone that condemns not the Oct 7 attack forfeits the right to talk about restraining Israeli rights to obliterate Hamas in Gaza.
So is it a good thing for parliament to discuss the Isreali-Palestinian problem? I think it is good for Singapore as a sign of maturity to be able to discuss the politics in a calm and collected manner and be able to agree to disagree. This seems to be a break from long held tradition – that public discussion of politics of other countries is voodoo. However, religion should remain a no-go zone. It is of course very difficult to separate the two, after all, Islam is both an ideology and a political organisation of a way of life.
I am all for talking about humanitarian aid. But here we also need to be careful. Whether it is privately funded initiative or tax payer dollars, we must know where the money goes. Hamas is both a terrorist organisation and the government of Gaza. Where will the aid money go? To the government and the people or to terrorists? It is impossible to prevent humanitarian aid money being diverted to military use by Hamas. Notice in Lee Hsien Loong’s interview, he referred to Palestinian Authority even though that is the government of West Bank and not Gaza. LHL cannot recognise Hamas as government of Gaza. It is easy to assume a Liberal bleeding heart talk about aid, but the brutal reality is the problem is complex.
The world now says Israel has the right to defend itself (as if there are countries which do not have this right), but the IDF must observe the proportionality doctrine. It is a demand never imposed on any army in the world, what more on an army that drops leaflets or sends out notifications to its enemies to vacate buildings targeted to be bombed, or give adequate time to move out of designated fighting zones. But the world does not want to hear Hamas fired more than 5,000 rockets on Israel. The fact Israel’s Iron Dome was able to take out most of these rockets and spare the country of untold suffering, somehow also spares Hamas the criticism of carrying out a disproportionate act. Hello World, Israel is no longer reacting to unarmed youths throwing stones, but a full-fledged militia firing 5,000 rockets at them. Where is the proportionality?
Hamas rockets have a high failure rate. Israel’s missile launch tracking system says in the current conflict, about 400 Hamas rockets dropped within Gaza. When Singaporean bleeding hearts see the destruction in Gaza and the death toll, are they able to partition blame on Israeli precision bombs or Hamas faulty rockets? Including the bomb on the Orthodox Church. Of course we now know the Baptist Hospital was not bombed by Israel. An Islamic Jihad rocket misfired and fell on the carpark near the hospital. Casualty count was about 50, not the media lie of 500 that went around the world.
That is not to say Israeli bombs caused no civilian casualties. Of course in a war, casualties there always will be. The test is it must not be indiscriminate or intentional targeting of civilians.
As Western liberal media take Hamas press releases without care for authentication, it is clear Israel will win the battlefield war but not the propaganda war. Anti-semitism once again rears its ugly head all over the world. So when Singapore parliament sit to discuss, members should weigh the issues fairly. Since I suspect much of the discussion will be centered on what role Singapore can play in terms of humanitarian aid, I like to share something that has no traction with Western media.
Did you know Israel issued at one time 70,000 work visas for Palestinians from Gaza and West Bank to help improve their economic situation? Just like Malaysians working in Singapore, Palestinians treasure the Israeli work visa because the pay is substantially much higher. These Palestinians have an entirely different mind set. They care about their employment and work hard to build a life for their family, to save and build a house and invest in business back in Gaza. In other words, these are the ordinary folks that will help build the economy of Gaza. But in the propaganda world, no one hears about stuff like this. Read about the visa here.
It is important to have a proper perspective. One side has an unappreciated humanitarian streak, not all Palestinians are terrorists, and Israel is not the enemy. Hamas is.
Patrick Low
* Article first appeared on Down The Rabbit Hole.
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Posted in 
“Did you know Israel issued at one time 70,000 work visas for Palestinians from Gaza and West Bank to help improve their economic situation?”
Since you compare this with Sg/My, you are obviously biased and ignorant. Malaysia is a free country. It can do anything it wants. In sharp contrast, Gaza is called an open air prison. It is surrounded by Israel. All land, air, sea routes are blocked/controlled by Israel.
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@Obviously biased & ignorant
Patrick has always struck and impressed me as a very competent and good commentator, especially with his knowledge on finance.
However, after glancing through this article, I already sense bias in the first few paragraphs and his tendancy to provide excuses for Israel and blame Hamas for everything that is happening in Gaza.
While I may not agree with most of what he wrote, I acknowledge that every human has feelings and may perceive things differently. He is therefore entitled to his opinion and that, I can respect.
For me, unless it is self-defense, I DO NOT condone violence of any sort under any pretense, and what Israel did is not self-defense, but massacre, ethnic cleansing and genocide.
If Hamas needs to be taken to task for the murder of innocent civilians, then those calling the shots in Israel should also be taken to task for the massacre of innocent civilians in Gaza, aided and abetted by the US of A.
It is my sincere hope that both Biden and Blinken’s a$$e be hauled to the Hague to face charges for war crimes after their term is over.
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Who has proven atrocity? US. Lots of photo and video evidence. AND lots of secret photos and videos that the POTUS considered too brutal and too dangerous to release.
Do Christians make any noise? No.
Tech: It is said that Jews are NOT Christians, so why should they make noise?
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The Middle Eastern people has been fighting each other since the dawn of time. And they will continue to kill each other for the unforeseeable future. There is no point getting involved in their BS. Do they give a shit about you? Let them be. Life is short. Make the best use of your time and live as well as you can.
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Hamas is lawless grouping,like it or not.
The world cannot be allowed to be besieged by lawless people.
Even without Israel,groups like Hamas will not be peaceful and seek other “enemies” as targets as if their very existence is legit only if there is some kind of conflict.
Evil is getting more prononced everywhere.
Where there is lust for power,where there is Greed and Selfishness.
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Finally, someone in the position and with capability has said that Turkey is “prepared to go to war” with Israel.
Turkey is the most armed country in NATO, and its weapons are probably in par with the US of A.
I wonder if their army starts to march through Syria towards Israel, what can Israel do, bomb Syria and start another war front?
OR will the US bomb Turkey with its fighter jet from its carrier group, declaring war with Turkey?
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Insightful but no one want to listen to the truth…prefer their own agenda.
This conflict is hard to resolve …will only get worse.
Killing one another not going to solve any problem…
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I can’t help but felt a tinge that Muslims are bad and Jews are good in this article, written by a Christian, like most Christians, that presumed that Jews are Christians and their friends. Jews are not Christians but the anti thesis of Christianity. They killed Jesus and till now would not accept Jesus and Christianity. Their religion is Judaism and their God is Yahweh, the God of Israel, not Jesus and not the God of Christianity. Period.
Why not 1948? The survivors of the Nazi Pogroms were European Jews. Why not despatch them to the USA, a huge continent of stolen land from the native Americans, sparsely populated in many states till today? The USA has plentiful of land to share with the European Jews and let them live in peace. Instead, they chucked them into a small strip of land in the midst of the Arabs.
Why? Because the European Americans are mostly anti semitic and would not want the Jews to be in their stolen land, better to be empty than filled with the survivors of Pogroms and the holocaust.
If the Americans and the Brits were kind and sincere, and relocate the European Jews in the USA, there will not be such an unsolvable problem in the ME with a state called Israel, and the massacres and genocides of Arabs and Muslims.
1948 was the turning point. The Jews would go anywhere, and would be very happy to go to the USA, then. The wise decision would to send the Jews to the USA. The evil and wick*d decision was to shaft them into the midst of the Arabs and Muslims, two opposing people that are like oil and water. What is happening today speaks for itself.
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Their mentality is so warped like that: we carried out criminal slaughter of civilians at the other party and now our women and children also kenna bombed, BUT don bother lah we won’t stop our attacks against the other party. SO THEY DONT CARE THEY ARE NOT PAINED TO SEE THEIR OWN CHILDREN SUFFER?. Even we here are pained. The Isr old woman who was released had fascilitated Gazan children to Isr hospitals to rec operation n treatment. The music festival was filled w many peace loving Israeli citizens that called for harmony w Palestinians. BUT IT IS PROVEN THE ISRAELIS HV ON THEIR BORDER A PEOPLE NOT WANTING PEACEFUL LIVING SIDE BY SIDE W THEM. Do such deserve any statehood?. Their premise of statehood is NOT to live side by side w Isr but to get rid of Isr, let’s get this right.
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Israel, as any other nation-state member of the U.N., has an “inherent right to individual, or collective self-defense,” as recognized under Article 51 of the United Nations Charter. The founding documents of both the P.L.O. and Hamas reject the two-state solution, provided under UNGAR 181, which Israel accepted in 1948. Article 13 of the Hamas Covenant unequivocally rejects all forms of non-violent conflict resolution in favor of perpetual war against Israel. Read it at: http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp
As a consequence of numerous “defensive wars of necessity” and Palestinian ignoring of Israeli offers to return 95% of land captured in the 1967 “Six Day War,” Israel has expanded to its present footprint. The decision of Palestinians not to address peace offers is, in and of itself, a decision: acquiescence in the status-quo. As the victorious belligerent, Israel may retain captured land until possession is modified by treaty. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uti_possidetis
When terrorists brought down the Twin Towers in NYC, Palestinians danced in the streets and handed out sweets in celebration. Last summer, residents of Sderot Israel, a frequent target of Hamas rockets, sat on sofas outside their homes and cheered as the I.D.F. Air Force brought down high rise building in Gaza. There is an old Marine Corps adage about “Payback,” which cannot be repeated in its entirety in a family newspaper, but in essence, “what goes around, comes around!”
We could debate endlessly the reasons to or to not go to war. However, many wrong steps can be taken by not taking a step at all.America made such a decision in the prosecution of World War II, after it was forced upon them by the Nazis and the Japanese imperialists. That decision, however tragic, allowed us the opportunity to have this discussion.
Humanity knows no borders. I agree with most of what writer says except that it is abundantly clear that if allowed and eventually able, Al-Qaeda/HAMAS/ISIS/Hezbollah would not stop at Israel borders. We are probably their end goal. Everything included: the persecution of Christians, the sexual enslavement of young women, the murder of anyone in opposition to Radical Islam and its dictates.
As I said before, a war WILL destroy HAMAS, if it is large enough. Such a war would require the deaths of very many putative non-combatants. To prosecute it, one would have to decide that the maiming and death of those putative non-combatants, however tragic and regrettable, would be less so than the continued lives of the members of HAMAS.
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@Dalai Says “Read My Lips”
We are way past the part on apportioning blame. Whatever covenant and agreement proposed by Tom, Dick or Harry is no longer relevant in the current situation.
The fact of the matter as it stands now, is that Israel is conducting ethnic cleansing and genocide, and it has to be stopped, period.
As and when the atrocities by Israel have been stopped, then and only then can the world play the “who is to be blamed” game.
Apparently now, there is no doubt that Israel is the aggressor and innocent Palestinians in Gaza are the victims.
Had it not been for the support that the warmonger and gangster US, I doubt Israel would have the balls to do what it is doing. The fact that the US is complicit in this means that the world is holding back on their condemnation, afraid of offending the gangster.
Be that as it may, I think the world should focus on what Israel is doing, nothing else.
Countries that are capable and wants to act, should act and not delay further to prevent more loss of innocent lives. Stop wasting time on meaningless words, crying father crying mother, it won’t make any difference because the emboldened Israel won’t bother to listen.
If Israel can be wiped off the map of the world, please do it and bring Hamas along. lol
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@Dalai Says “Read My Lips”
My AI calculation tells me that when someone talk selective history and another was able to rebut with more history, such someone will tell you to stop talking about history.
The persons who seek 2 states solution now were those who against it in the beginning. And claimed that the one who agreed and took steps towards 2 states all these while to be against it.
The person(s) who started the war to deny the existence of another is now crying occupation by another.
This is how skewed this world is, even in this forum.
My AI calculation can calculate the ugly part of humanity, but unable to calculate how ugly it can be.
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@TRE Tech
When people see their own people as special victims, and have no sympathy for anybody else who has suffered, it is a virtual certainty that our world will see genocides over and over again. The only difference each time will be who goes in the gas chamber, and who pulls the switches. HAMAS pulls first. ;)
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Not the God of Christianity? Show how inept you are on Theology.
Stop your misleading doctrine. Go and read more on the New Testament.
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Gaza fisher folk can only ‘dream of fishing freely’ under Israel’s blockade
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/8/23/gaza-fisherfolk-can-only-dream-of-fishing-freely-under-israels-blockade
The small area Palestinian fishers can access under Israel’s at-times violent blockade of the besieged enclave is usually overcrowded with people trying to make a living, resulting in overfishing that has depleted fish stocks.
Seizures of fishing essentials like boats, engines and nets are also a regular occurrence.
That morning, a fisherman was targeted and injured by Israeli forces, Bakr told Al Jazeera. His engine was partially destroyed.
A frustrated Bakr said he believes Israel is using the Palestinian fishers as “lab rats” to try out new weapons.
If Singapore were to do such things to Malaysian fishers, you can guess what Malaysians would do to Singapore.
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Wah, this Net and Yahoo really tokong ar, learning so fast from the lightning. Do no wrong, see no wrong, blame everything on other people, taichi all to his subordinates.
He really acting like God liao, even his own cabinet he also dares to piss off, he got a death wish or wat?
Anyway, heard Hamas already officially said they are willing to release ALL the hostages, but Net and Yahoo has dismissed any probability of such an arrangement, accusing Hamas of trying to hoodwink him.
Total disregard for the lives of the hostages, what more can I say except that he is more interested in destroying Gaza than getting the hostages released.
What do you think?
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Stop reading what you want to read. Go read the Old Testament. The Jewish Bible has no New Testament. They debunked the myth in the New Testament.
Remember what Jesus said, ‘I came only for the lost sheep of Israel’. This is in the New Testament. Are you the lost sheep of Israel or pretending that you are and Jesus came to save you. Oh, you don’t believe in what Jesus said. You just want to believe what you want to believe.
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@ If Singapore were to do such things to Malaysian fishers, you can guess what Malaysians would do to Singapore.
Well, provided no Malaysian act like Hamas. Nobody exactly knows until it happens or will never happened. What
we only know is the prc mei mei lau lan with our police and hospital stuff, subsequently what happen.
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Ya ya, say info say half.
Hamas said they are willing to release ALL the hostages INEXCHANGE for 6,000 terrorists held in Israelis prison.
Good deal, good deal Hamas always win isn’t it?
6 months time, 6 months if Hamas’ brothers did not come and save Hamas, Hamas will definitely surrender. Israel just need to maintain 6 months of blockage, air land and sea. And take time slowly to clean up Hamas.
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@kaiju
In another thread, I already say liao, that Israel will NOT honor any agreement and truce with Hamas. So what is stopping them from continuing to bomb Gaza AFTER the hostages and prisoners are released? Besides, once the prisoners are released, where can they go? Back to Gaja right? Since Israel’s intention is to destroy Gaza completely, what difference does it make? REMEMBER that Israel is backed and supported by the gangster US, even if Israel do not honor the agreement arrived with Hamas, what can the world do? All lan lan rite? I am sure the US can always cook up another c**k and bull story to forgive Israel, dio bo?
Make no mistake, there can be no peaceful settlement of this conflict because Israel DO NOT want a 2 states solution and Hamas wants Israel destroyed. Since Israel is more powerful than Hamas, they are going to destroy Gaza regardless of hostages live or die.
The delays in ground assault is because the US still wants face and they want the world to think that they tried, but in fact, they don’t really care abut the hostages anyway, the hostages, like the Israeli, are merely pawns to the US in their get-rich-scheme.
On that premise, I think Hamas better to just kill all the hostages, shame Israel and US on the world stage, and then wait to die when israel go all out.
Then Palestinians in Gaza gone, Israel wins and war stops, everybody happy, dio bo?
As for the so-called International community condemnation of Israel, all just making noise cry father cry mother for show nia, you think any would dare act and go to war with a US backed Israel meh?
You say got logic bo?
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Why is it not possible for the Palestinians and Israelites to work together to get rid of the Hamas?
Tech: Palestinians and Israelites wants to eradicate each other since the beginning of time (天敌), how to “work together”? Besides, Hamas is a political party and also Palestinians, very complicated one.
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At this point, it is imperative to save lives and to limit destruction to nature. It should not be about how many rockets or bombs each State is sending the other. One is already too many. It should not be about land ownership justification of 3000 years as the past does not exist. It is today, what can we do to remove suffering of any human being. We should remove our religious cloaks and be human beings.We should only work towards preservation of human lives not destruction. Most of the leaders of the world have failed in their duties to stop the escalation of war in the Middle East. Citizens of all countries will pay a huge price with more deaths if the bombing of GAZA does not stop. Those who have vested interests will fuel the war. The world has to depend on China,Ireland and Norway to stop this war and bring all parties to the negotiating table. This should not include the US,UK,France,Canada, Australia or Japan.
Tech: I am tempted to agree with you. As long as the US is not in the equation, it is very easy to work things out and even if cannot, at least things won’t escalate to what it is today/ The US is a warmonger, so other than war, nothing good can come out of it, history bears witness to that.
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All you smart people supporting Israel attack, you are part of the killings of 8000 including 3000+ children.
More than 8,000 Palestinians, including 3,342 children, have been killed in Gaza since Israel’s air campaign began, according to the latest figures from the Gaza Health Ministry.
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Morgan asked whether it was even possible to overthrow the Hamas leadership. Yousef responded that there was no longer any choice.
“Listen to this: We are going to remove Hamas from power. Remember my words, okay? And Hamas did not only bring the wrath of Israel over Gaza, Hamas brought the wrath of God. We are going to remove them from power and we are going to prosecute their leaders. And we are going to bring them to justice, and the world will witness their punishment.
“And everyone who takes their side today, in this state of confusion, thinking that this is a joke, I tell those people that you are going to regret taking the side of Hamas. You are going to regret taking the side of those criminals who are killing the Palestinian people,” he said.
-The Times of Israel
Tech: So the Israelis is declaring war on all non-backer of them? nice, what arrogance!
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@TRE, So you mean the Palestinians chose the Hamas, and Hamas whacked Israelites ？Or are we saying that the Palestinians are the collateral damage now because Hamas attacked first? The history that both parties at loggerheads with one another will always be there. If you are not happy with the way history pans out, and you try to get rid of someone, you must be mentally prepared that any retaliations can mean they get rid of you. If you are not mentally prepared, and you still want to get rid of the other party, then you have to accept whatever outcomes, including the premise that no war will ever be fair.
Wanting to get rid of the other party and actually doing it are 2 DIFFERENT THINGS. If we muddle these up, the whole world will be in chaos.
Then there are those who argue that life is not fair to the Palestinians. Ok, but when has life really been fair to others on earth?
We can argue that Israel may not forgive what the Palestinians did, but the truth is there will be no Israel retaliation now if Hamas had opted for peace. If the Palestinians or in this case Hamas had spared a thought for their innocent civilians about retaliations, why take out their weapons in the first place? I am not siding IDF for killing innocents, but like I said, no war meted out will ever be fair. Where are the people who stood at the sidelines when Russia ravaged Ukraine, yet throw bombs at Israelites now ?
Japan featured in WW2. Did Japan ‘return’ an atomic bomb to US after WW2 2 ？
Leading to the main question, why the Hamas backsides so itchy this Oct? Are the Palestinians shielding Hamas? If not, why not join hands for once with the Israelites?
Tech again: I meant exactly what I said, quoted above. Not a single word more, not a single word less.
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Last time Jordan 大發慈悲 take in palestinians , in the end tio backstabbed by them. Palestinians try to overthrown Jordan monarch. Even Jordan prime minister also tio assinated by them.
You people say Israel blocked them , but Gaza at one end link to Egypt. Egypt also block them.
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The people that support Israel to kill the Arabs and Muslims are the believers of the Bible, living in the delusion that the Jews are Christians. But the Jews are not Christians, anti Christians. The Jews don’t believe in the New Testament.
Remember who killed Jesus? It is the Jews.
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My point is put aside the historical enmity and differences. Hamas started the war and everyone including the UN should make concerted efforts to get rid of Hamas.
Not blame the Israelites or the Palestinians.
Tech: I don’t think anyone would not agree that Hamas that caused the initial killings should be taken to task and eliminated. My question to you now is what about those Israelis that are responsible for the killings of 8000+ (and counting) INNOCENT civilians in Gaza, do we forgive them and forget what they did, and are continuing to do?
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Read: https://www.timesofisrael.com/son-of-hamas-in-interview-terrorists-brought-wrath-of-god-with-october-7-attack/
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Readers are debating now whether IDF (Israel Defence Forces) is more brutal than HAMAS or not. Or if it is “just” to kill non-combatant Palestinians…..
It is naive in the extreme to think that there are wars which fit the neat category of “just.” I think not! If any act, no matter how vile, can be framed as a “religious sacrament” by deranged zealots, the question is whether any act perpetrated by such a pitiless group of butchers could be just.
Conversely, I do think that Israel, who has faced constant, unrelenting existential threats since 1948, a tiny country with 8 million Jews surrounded by the better part of a BILLION Muslims! When Israel defends itself from terrorists aimed at civilians, there is a great outcry. It’s ironic that people seek to define a just war, while condemning any of Israel’s efforts to defend its people in a just manner. In the case of Israel, I think the nations of the world have been brainwashed by Islamist propaganda using social media of “mangled babies/children” (God bless them), making fairness a remote possibility.
A “Just War” is defensive in nature, while a “war of aggression” is driven by conquest of the land and resources of others. The Empire of Japan sought to annex parts of China and much of the Western Pacific for rubber and oil after the U.S. cut off oil exports over atrocities, such as the 1937 “Rape of Nanjing.” Dropping nuclear weapons shortened the war by nearly two years, saving the lives of an estimated 500,000 Americans and 2 million Japanese. See: Richard B. Frank, “Downfall: The End of The Imperial Japanese Empire,” Penguin, May 2001 (PB)
Reality is, Americans are war weary. North Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, conflicts with various explanations, but no victory. The current administration was elected, with the promise to get the US out of the convoluted efforts in the Middle east. The model is now drones, while deployment of others to be ‘boots on the ground’. Accepting Russia’s efforts in the Ukraine, and soon probably other parts of eastern Europe (eg: Armenia-Azerbaijan) war is happening, again to avoid an armed conflict. In the whole of it all, once a conflict starts, morality isn’t much of a factor. They always profess to be the good guy. Foreign policy has never been their strong suit and influence in the world is dominated by its’ large military, not spreading the style of Democracy, that system is too messy for most.
When we label this “collateral damage,” we further weaken our justification. As for HAMAS, I recall, many decades ago, predictions that the ‘Israeli Settlements’ problem would come back to haunt Israel and the wider region. That was an accurate prediction. That backlash has already begun. I would suggest that there is no such thing as a “moral,” war, any more than there is such a thing as “moral,” violence.
Tech: To cut matters short, Israel is not “self-defending” hor, Israel is out for “revenge”. There is a huge world of difference between the 2, go check dictionary.
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@dodo
Actually the war started in 1948 when the British carved out land in the Middle East for a Zionist state called Israel. Prior to that, Arabs, Jews, Christians and other communities lived and thrived peacefully in the area. The Zionist had a population of about 800,000 in 1948. Today they have a population of 8million people. Many Zionists were from other countries. So they have built on Occupied Lands and made the Palestinians fugitives in their own Land. Gaza’s population is only about 500,000 to 600,000 people. 1.7m people are refugees who have been driven out of their homes in Occupied Territories. So please don’t say that this was started by Hamas. The Zionists’ plan is to take down any organisation that may resist its objective of grabbing land from the Palestinians.
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Thus, Hamas is self-defending or revenge? Palestinian are self-defending or revenge?
“If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel.”
-Golda Meir
Tech: That depends on whether you want to include history or just want to view the current incident as standalone. BTW, this “Golda Meir” that you quoted is a complete idiot.
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Tsk tsk. You are very bad with history.
British mandate begins YEARS before that regarding 2 states partition. It was UN that passed the resolution with 2/3 majority in 1947. Want to check who are the 2/3 nations?
1948? Egypt (proxy from Gaza) & Jordan (proxy from West Bank) started war the next day after Israel declared independence on the partitioned land passed by UN res 181 in 1947. The Arabs in Gaza & West Bank REJECTED THE TWO STATES SOLUTION.
Singaroar, don’t shame yourself by being ignorant on the fact. But, if you purposely twist the facts, SHAME ON YOU.
Now, in fact the government from West Bank are more acceptance on the ‘2 states solution’ than HAMAS, the de facto government of GAZA, REJECTED ‘2 States solution’ and only objective of HAMAS is to kick Jews out of Israel.
So, the only best solution is to Destroy HAMAS, then return control of Gaza to West Bank, then start discussions of ‘2 States Solution’ with Peaceful and Agreeable Palestinian government again.
Tech: Destroy Hamas, no issue there, absolutely agree. but the Jews in Israel has to be accountable too and also destroyed. Without Gaza, the Jews will continue to bully and murder Palestinians in West bank and the harassment continues.
2 states can only work if the Jews and Palestinians are NOT neighbors, maybe swap land with some other countries in Middle-east?
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I want very much to say that the Israelites must be held accountable for those deaths. The problem is the world is just watching what Hamas did and no one came forward to take concrete actions to get rid of Hamas. Going to the UN and muttering some condemnation is not concrete action. If the Palestinians can come out and say, they want Hamas gone in exchange for peace and land, then the Israelites are solely accountable for innocents they killed. Why are the Palestinians keeping quiet?
Tech: Hm… so if my understanding is correct, you want Sinkies to come out and say they want the PAPies gone, for the PAP does not represent all Sinkies and what they did is their own responsibility? lol
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I understand your point. What I mean is even UN recognises Israel as a state with voting rights so any animosity between the different parties, the UN must take some responsibility for the state of affairs today. Did they send a peace keeping force to make sure everything is ok ? No. Did they work out a longer term solution for the Palestinians over the years ? No. Did they do anything to Hamas other than reading from canned scripts in UN ? Also no. If this us not a toothless tiger, what is ?
I am saying Israel has to be held accountable but so must all other parties.
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Your question is a personal decision to come out or not lah, but if one doesn’t come out to call for pap to be gone even if there is a right course, then don’t claim to have the right to point and ask oppo to be gone when they have a right course. To do so means being a hypocrite. No lack of such people on forums lol.
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@dodo
I think your reading skills may need tweaking. When, I said the war actually started in 1948, does it mean that physical war commenced then or the carving of land began the fighting between the nation Israel and it’s neighbours . Prior to 1948, all peace but after that the fightings. Why should the Arab countries allow the carving of their lands by Britain? It is the same in India. By carving lands the fightings never stop.It is endless. The Jews who have lived in the area for centuries can continue to live there. The Zionists should get onto a ship and go from country to country to beg for residency as they did decades ago. The truth is no one wanted the Zionists and planted them in Palestinian Lands.
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I find it funny, that there are so many historically documented facts of what transpired between the Jews and Palestinians over the decades. Why are people still arguing over what actually transpired?
For example: The Israelis have been bullying, killing and grabbing land from the Palestinians over decades.
It is so well documented and plastered all over the internet, what is there to argue?
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@Singaroar, You likely missed my points, please read my point carefully. Your point on Arab countries allowing for land split is correct but viewed as peripheral, how many times in UN has there been fierce contestations on the issues you raised if you look at all issues brought up to UN as a whole ? What you mentioned on potential consequences of keeping Zionists in Palestinian lands was not fiercely objected by UN for so many years. Yes or No ? I am not asking you to say this is the right thing to do. I am only asking Yes or No ?
Are you saying that if Hamas did not launch an attack, Israel will still start to kill innocents now ? Yes or No ?
Without Hamas in the picture, did you hear any wars going on in the last few years ?
Just Yes or No ？
Anyone can talk all he wants what Zionists should do and where they should be but the world at large (if you see UN as the world at large) needs to make a collective decision how to deal with this.
Tech: On the killing of innocent civilians IF Hamas did not start Oct 7, you are not entirely correct. israel has been bulying, killing and grabing land from the Palestinians for decades, the most recent being just this year or two, I think. Can’t remember exact date, but I am sure you can search for it.
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Tsk, tsk. The more you tried to save your face, the more you are displaying that you know nuts about what had happened before 1948.
Why not like this, don’t be lazy do some research to find out what had happened?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandatory_Palestine
The British mandate in Palestine lasted from 1920 until 1948, and it was established following the defeat of the Ottoman Empire in World War I. The mandate established the relationship between the United Kingdom and Palestine, with the promise that the British would work to establish a Jewish homeland.
Before the mandate, Palestine was under Ottoman rule, but with the end of the Ottoman Empire as a result of the war, there was a need for a new leadership structure. The 1917 Balfour Declaration was an important turning point in the formation of the British mandate. The Balfour Declaration declared British support for the establishment of a Jewish homeland in Palestine.
The mandate was established by the League of Nations (predecessor to the United Nations) in 1922, and it called for Britain to administer the territory, which included present-day Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza Strip. The mandate ensured that the land would be open to Jewish immigration and that the Jewish National Home would be established.
During the pre-state period, there was continuous conflict between the Arabs and Jews. The mandate did not deliver a solution that satisfied both Jews and Arabs, and there was a growing sense of frustration. Arab opposition to the Jewish immigration was escalating, and in 1929 British troops were sent into Palestine to quell Arab riots.
The Arab Rebellion of 1936 made relations between the Jews and the British even worse, as the British began to believe that the Zionist movement would not be able to make good on their promises of creating a Jewish state. In 1939, the British proposed a White Paper, which set strict limits on Jewish immigration to Palestine.
During World War II, the tensions continued to grow, with the Jewish population in Palestine frequently coming into conflict with the British authorities. One of the most notable acts of resistance was the bombing of the King David Hotel in 1946, which was carried out by Jewish paramilitaries.
Following the end of World War II, the mandate came to an end, and the British withdrew from Palestine. In May 1948, the State of Israel was declared, shortly after the United Nations adopted a plan to partition Palestine into two states: one Jewish and one Arab.
Singaroar, you can or not? Don’t know history based on hearsay? Some more lazy to find out?
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What British mandate? That was a colonial master lording over captive locals.
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The State of Israel was only declared on May 14th 1948. So that is the official timeline that is used. No matter how you argue the dates, there was no Israel prior to it and people lived and thrived in the region for centuries. They may have had fights but not genocide with 8000 over civilians dead.
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There is no Palestine too then.
You did not count how many Israelis killed?
You can’t win, not that because you have limited knowledge on this matter, but because you lacks moral and lazy.
Tech: Pray tell, “how many Israelis killed” by Palestinians, documented please.
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Of course you are right. I am not siding Israel. Of course if you go back to decades, the conflicts were there. And of course last few years no conflict doesn’t mean we throw away conflicts decades ago. My point is the world as a whole needs to shoulder some responsibilities for allowing things to happen in decades. Hamas is a main issue now because for so many decades, it’s like the fuel already spilled on the floor and all it takes is a fire torch to set something ablaze. Hamas is that fire torch today. For UN, if you don’t want to warn of potential risks and shoulder some responsibilities or years, why throw rocks now, and without concrete actions ?
Where you are not correct is I did not say “Hamas must shoulder everything”, but with the state of affairs, the complications are bigger is no one gets them off.
Tech: On the killing of innocent civilians IF Hamas did not start Oct 7, you are not entirely correct. israel has been bulying, killing and grabing land from the Palestinians for decades, the most recent being just this year or two, I think. Can’t remember exact date, but I am sure you can search for it.
Tech: I wouldn’t disagree at all. All parties are guilty, one way or another. However, history aside, Israel is committing genocide now and they have to be stopped, blame can be apportioned when the massacre end. IMHO.
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Yes, my point is all parties own up, not remain at finger pointing stage like now.
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